What to think about when a staff person is also a member of the congregation – Transcript
Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers, best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. I’m your host, Reverend Jim Latimer. And we have the good fortune of having with us today, Reverend Holly MillerShank. Holly is long-experienced in ministry in lots of ways, including at the National setting of the UCC, and at the local setting as interim pastor as a settled pastor. Anyway, read her bio for more of her experience. But in particular, she agreed to speak a little bit around staffing. We did one already on staffing in general as an interim. But specifically, when the staff person is also a church member, it gets more complicated, and complex and nuanced. And she has some experience and some wisdom to share around that. And I know that we would enjoy and benefit from it. Thank you, Holly.
Holly MillerShank
Absolutely, Jim, it’s wonderful to be here with you again, and to talk about the topic that’s never really a cut and dry one about the relationship between the interim minister and the staff. Because as a transitional pastor, you are accompanying staff members during a very tumultuous and anxiety producing time. And that’s true for the general congregation, as much as it is for the staff, who are very curious about what will change for them, what will be expected of them, and what will this look like, both with the newness of the interim, and the unknown of who the congregation will call next.
And there’s a sort of interesting overlay, when a staff member also holds membership in the congregation. Because they bring not only the perspective of someone who gives of their time and energy as a staff member, but also the relationship that they have with a community of faith. And so, some people say, Never let a church member become a staff member. I think sometimes that’s a hard line to hold. And we experience, particularly as interims, both staff members who have their own worshiping community, or people of no faith at all, or whatever permutation of that, but we also very commonly experience when a member of the congregation is also a staff member.
And I think there’s a couple different conversations as the interim to have with staff members, who are also church members, about can they do some self-differentiation in their roles. You know, when are they doing something as an employee of the church with that hat on? And when are they a worshiping part of the community? And having at least the language around self-differentiation, or saying like, Which hat do you have on? that might be a good visual for folks. And sometimes it’s not possible to wear both hats at the same time. So, how do you choose that type of thing?
I also think it’s really important to have some good conversations about boundaries with staff members who are also members of a church. And I’m trying to think quickly about where some examples may come. So, an example might be a Christian Educator, who is a paid Christian Educator, who is also a member of the congregation, perhaps at the time in which they leave the staffing role. I had a Christian Educator retire when I was serving as an interim, that it wasn’t appropriate for her then, as a church member, to sign up to be on the C.E. committee. You’re still a welcomed member of this worshiping community, but you need to step back from influencing or participating in the role in which you have just left weeks ago as the paid employee. And so, having some of those conversations.
I have also had the experience of serving as an interim where the church administrator was also a member of the church. And we all know that church administrators are privy to a lot of confidential information, and having some conversations around the boundaries about what gets shared publicly, or in prayer group, or in different avenues in which the administrator is present in which things remain confidential inside the confines of the office, is really helpful boundary setting for people who have those dual roles.
Jim Latimer
Yes. So, several things. Self-differentiation. I really appreciate that. The notion with staff members then, as the interim Minister, of helping to coach them around self-differentiation. They may need that. And then the awareness of: Okay, I have two hats. When is it appropriate to put on which hat, right? And then the awareness of: Oh, this is the hat I’ve got on and therefore I can go down this path, or whatever.
And the boundaries piece. You spoke, Holly, of someone who is a member and then becomes a staff member. But what if they’re hired from the outside as a staff member? What about the possibility of them then becoming a member of that church? Do you have a thought about that?
Holly MillerShank
I think it deserves conversation – particularly given whatever is the context of the community of faith. I think all of us have realized that some places are more isolating than others, and to find a community of faith that’s welcoming, that’s inclusive. I would never want to deny that to someone over something that feels like perhaps a technicality. But I think it’s really essential to have clear understandings and expectations on the differences of roles.
I also think, as the interim minister, there’s a very, very important line to walk with pastoral care to staff members. Because we all know that our hearts are filled with compassion, and that we want to offer grace. Whether the staff member is a member of the church or not, they have some crises in their life. And we say, Take the time you need. But when that time you need starts to turn from days to weeks to months, and the job is not being accomplished, where does the pastoral care lie in tension with where does the accountability for job performance lie? And I think that is what gets stickier when it’s a church member, because the pastor also holds those dual relationships with that individual then.
Jim Latimer
Right. If the staff member is not a church member, then you could pretty well make the case that the congregation’s job isn’t to take care of the staff. And sometimes there’s folks that really want to take care of them. Well, yeah, we love them, but our job fundamentally isn’t to take care of the staff. It’s fundamentally the other way around -within reason, right? The staff, and I’ve had to say this a number of times, Our job as paid staff is to serve the congregation. That doesn’t mean you do whatever they tell you to do. It doesn’t mean that. But it does mean that fundamentally, you’re in a servant relationship to them. And then when they’re also a member, it gets dicey around pastoral care, but they deserve pastoral care.
And I love also, Holly, your adding the nuance – you’re a great one for nuance – if you’re in an area where there aren’t that many options for church membership. Or if someone comes on, especially in an admin role, and they’re looking for a job, and they’re a really good administrator, and you hire them into the admin role. And then they discover, Oh, wow, this community of faith is great! Because maybe they had a bad experience with church before. So, they thought they were just going to tolerate it. Yes, here’s a whole new way of understanding faith in God, and love, and they’re just blooming! And they go, Oh, wow, this is fabulous! And that catches them by surprise. And they might want to be a member. I totally get that. And to be “all in” as a member, not just as a staff person.
So, have the conversation. You got to have the conversation. So, you’re working not just on expectations, but you’re working from agreements: this is an explicit agreement which we can see. And now, we can negotiate when the bumps come, which they surely will, because that’s how life is.
Holly MillerShank
Yes, and if I can share one sort of concrete example, and I will give full credit to this concept in Susan Beaumont – a staffing and supervision course, it’s the piece that has a clung to me – is that congregations have a budget. And they have budgeted line items for staffing. And they have budgeted line items for benevolence, or, you know, support. And I served a congregation one time where the sexton was a long-time member of the church, but used a walker and was not physically able to do the work of the sexton. And so, church members would pick up the tasks, which this person was unable to do, because they wanted him to have income. And so, it was a conversation about, We can still support this person, but we still need to get the work done. Can we find another avenue through our benevolence, to be able to offer some ongoing support to this family we know is in need? Can we separate that from the work of getting the church vacuumed in time for us to worship on Sunday morning? And so just being open to that conversation around how much these relationships tug on people’s hearts, and their desire to care for one another, but also setting some sense of standardization and expectation, with the staffing roles to which people have signed an actual contract.
Jim Latimer
Yes. That, I think, is probably a good way to end this segment here. I appreciated Holly, what you held up there with that example was how it honors the need that many parishioners have to care for staff folks, and when staff folks have a hard time, you know, they want them to stay in their job because they see that they need the money. Well, there are other ways that we can support this person, with money, with other things that doesn’t require them to be in a job that they are physically unable to do, or for whatever reason. There are other ways besides that, that we can support them, and be compassionate and love on them, and to separate those two. Thank you for that.
Holly MillerShank
Not easy. I’m not saying it’s easy. But I think as a transitional minister, we have opportunities to at least have the conversation in a time of transition.
Jim Latimer
Well, Holly, this has been rich. Thank you so much for your time on this and the other conversations we had. But, in this one in particular about the challenges and opportunities when the staff member is also a church member. Thank you so much, Holly for your time and wisdom. Bye now.
Holly MillerShank
Thanks so much, Jim.