Thinking Collaboratively (not transactionally) about the tasks of ministry – Transcript
Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers, best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. I’m your host Reverend Jim Latimer. We have the great pleasure of having with us again Reverend Quentin Chin. Last summer, Quentin was with us and offered a number of Bits of Wisdom, mostly around part-time and bivocational ministry, where he has some real wisdom to offer. He told me a bit ago as we were preparing for this, Jim, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking during November. I really got triggered. He has some additional wisdom he wants to share with us around thinking collaboratively – the congregation leaders and the pastor – around the tasks of ministry, rather than transactionally. He said some things that I think many people would benefit from so Quentin, welcome. It’s great to have you back!
Quentin Chin
Thanks, Jim. Good to see you again. So, we have these tasks of ministry, you know, what does the pastor do? Of course, there’s leading worship and the funerals and weddings and the counseling and the newsletter and the administration and all this stuff. Basically, that task is the same where ever we go, right? It got me thinking: so many times, with congregations, we as the clergy are asked, Can you do this and that? It’s naming all these tasks. These are the tasks we need you to do, pastor.
I don’t dispute that those tasks are important and are necessary. But I started thinking about this in November: if we only think in terms of tasks: Pastor, can you do these? It becomes transactional. And particularly, if the congregation moves from a full-time pastorate to a part-time one, they may think, We still have these tasks to do. Of course, Pastor, you have less time to do them. But we still need them done.
Well, how realistic is that, even when we look at the tasks of ministry, and realize that even in a full-time pastorate, these tasks are hard to accomplish in the allocated time every week, right? And so, I got to thinking about this and wondering, Should we really be thinking about the relationship between pastor and congregation as transactional? Or, should we really start thinking about it as collaborative? And what I mean by collaborative would be something like, 1st Corinthians, chapter 12, right? All about spiritual gifts, right? Or we can look at Ephesians chapter four, where Paul again talks about spiritual gifts, building up the body of Christ. We all have these gifts. The body Christ as the congregation has its gifts. The pastor has his or her gifts. And what I mean by collaborative is for the congregation to ask, Pastor, what are your gifts? What are the things that you bring that are your real strengths into this ministry? And the pastor asking the congregation, Where are your strengths? Where do you see your spiritual gifts?
I think for us, as clergy, we have to acknowledge – it might be tough – but we have to confess that we’re not good at everything, right? There are some things that either we don’t have as much interest in, or that we’re not comfortable doing, or we simply may not be that good at. And there are other things that we excel at. And so, the collaborative piece then, is to see where we can work together – the clergy and the congregation bringing their strengths together.
Particularly when we think about part-time ministry, and I think in our earlier conversations around part-time ministry Jim, we were going into to this idea of the empowerment of the laity – their doing some of the tasks of ministry. So, this thinking collaboratively, will enhance this opportunity for lay empowerment. So, for instance, in my congregation now, we’re looking at trying to help the congregation prepare for an indefinite period of part-time ministry after I’m gone. We’ve been doing pretty well for the last year in that I don’t preach on the second Sunday of the month unless it’s a major liturgical day, like Easter, for instance.
There are a bunch of lay people who’ve been taking on the task of preaching on those days. They’re doing fine in leading worship. I’m also thinking, though, that there are many people who may want to lead worship, or could lead worship, who may be put off by having to write a sermon. So, what I will be doing on the fourth Sunday of every month, is creating some sort of worship template that they can model that will not require a sermon.
Jim Latimer
Something that fits into their strengths, right?
Quentin Chin
Yes! And let them work with that, so when the next pastor comes, that the next pastor will be able to accomplish more within the limited time of the contract. That’s kind of where it goes.
Jim Latimer
Yes. And they’ll accomplish more, because if I’m understanding you Quentin, you’re saying that they collectively will accomplish more because they’re working collaboratively, right? And the pastor is more spending more of their time – if you will – in their sweet spot. Right? Which only happens when there’s a conversation between pastor and lay leaders: What is a “sweet spot?” What are our sweet spots? What are some of yours? What are some of mine? And, by the way, what do you think mine are? Because sometimes we don’t know what we are really good at it, but someone else can see it. So, this is what I think they are. And by the way, what do you see in me? And let that go both ways. Right?
Quentin Chin
Yes. Right. Exactly.
Jim Latimer
When that happens, then both ways – pastor and congregation have that conversation both ways – we get clear about our sweet spots. We get clear about our superpowers – those things we are strong and enjoy doing. Then even though there’s less paid pastor time, the organization to some degree is more efficient. It’s more efficient because people are in their glory spots.
Quentin Chin
Well, yes. We’re leveraging our strengths. That’s really what we’re looking at. Instead of thinking about it as, Here’s a list of tasks that we have to do, when we collaborate, we leverage our strengths.
As we’re talking about this, I’m also realizing that particularly as we’re looking at churches today, and recognizing that many churches that are struggling really have to do a major shift in the way they do their ministry, and think about and approach their ministry. That’s something that doesn’t actually occur in the standard task list for clergy. An example might be a congregation that has fewer people showing up on Sunday morning, and it’s underutilizing their building, right? The building essentially is empty. We have these buildings that may be seriously occupied maybe five hours a week. And so, the task of the pastor may be helping this congregation figure out how connect to the community – to connect with other groups to come into that building and use it. And the idea then that 20% of the pastor’s time is being spent out in the community. So, this is kind of new in the transactional piece. But then if we look at it collaboratively like, Okay, so, let’s work together and see where are the connections in the community that you have – the congregation – and that I have as the pastor. What are we hearing? I think that could really help a lot in terms of moving the congregation into a new place.
Jim Latimer
I love that. And as we kind of wrap up here, maybe we ought to do another podcast, but I’m thinking that a lot of pastors, a lot of our colleagues, would agree with that. What’s to disagree with? But many of us probably aren’t used to operating that way or thinking that way as pastors with our parishioners. We’re not used to thinking in that way.
Quentin Chin
I’ll say this: I’ve only started thinking this way since the end of November! This is all new to me! It never really occurred to me, until November, that I’m sitting in this meeting, and like, Oh! I won’t go into the comment or anything, but it really got me thinking about this. I really started thinking that this whole aspect of transactional ministry, that’s the way – classically – that we’ve seen it. And we really need to think and move collaboratively on this.
Jim Latimer
I think for this conversation here, that’s a good place to stop. And often, as we were speaking before, people talk about transactional ministry and then there’s transformational – using the big two T words which they like to play off each other. And you’re not doing that. You’re not taking that bait. Transformation is a big fancy word that we throw around. And what’s it mean? Change shape? What you’re saying is there’s transactional, of a list of things that you’re supposed to do, and you check them off the list. And you are contrasting it with being collaborative. So, it’s not that you just have this list of things you do. Certainly, you have some things that you do. But, we also have some things that we do. And the things that you do are the things that you really want to do, and are really good at – which may not be the whole list. And by the way, we, the congregation, also have things we need to do and attend to, and they are the things that we are particularly good at.
That’s where a good match comes in. We’ve got to talk about it. What are you, interim minister candidate, or settled minister candidate, really good at? And then, what are we – the congregation – really good at? Have that conversation of really listening to each other and reflecting to each other. This is what I’m hearing you say needs to happen before a real collaborative ministry can happen and take shape.
Quentin Chin
Yes!
Jim Latimer
Quentin, it’s been a joy again! Hopefully we can have another one of these soon. Who knows what will come up in February? Maybe you’ll have another great idea!
Quentin Chin
Yes, we’ll have to collaborate!
Jim Latimer
All right, Quentin. Thanks so much.
Quentin Chin
Alright, Jim. And good to see you too! Take care.
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