Navigating the Nonsense in Transition- Transcript
Jim LatimerÂ
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers, best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. I’m your host, Reverend Jim Latimer. We have the good fortune to have with us today Reverend Doug Bixby. I have to say up front, Doug isn’t an interim minister per se. He’s been a long-time settled minister. But he’s thought and written a lot about effective ministry – about conflict, about governance, about how church organizations function and what makes pastors effective. He’s got two books out there which are very well thought of. I devoured them both when they came out. One is called Challenging the Church Monster: from Conflict to Community. The other is Navigating the Nonsense. No doubt he has more on the way. He’s one of my thought leaders that I go to. So, Doug, in this time here, you wanted to speak to something you called “navigating the nonsense in transition.” And of course, for interim ministers, transition is what we are about. So, we’d love to hear from you.
Doug Bixby
Thank you. And it’s an honor to be here with you, Jim, and grateful for the work you’re doing. Interim ministry is a not something I participated in, but I followed two interim ministers, and I believe in the work and feel like there’s great opportunity to serve God and our churches through this. In my book, Navigating the Nonsense, I talk a lot about conflict and triangulation. And I teach that we should seek to avoid triangulation not conflicts, and that conflicts are a normal, natural part of our human relationships.
And so, we should expect them and seek to encounter them in the most appropriate ways. But as we explored what to address in this session, I thought of an interesting topic. In my book, I talk about the trust versus mistrust stage of pastoral ministry. And I of course, borrow this from Eric Erickson’s first stage of human development and social psychology. He uses it as the beginning place of life, but I use it in relationship to the beginning of a relationship between a settled pastor and their congregation. And I tell settled pastors, you need to make it through the first three years, which is the trust versus mistrust stage, and be in a place where your congregation wants to entrust the mantle of pastoral leadership to you. And if you make it to that point, and through that point, you’re in a much better place to have greater levels of influence as you go forward in relationship to the congregation itself.
Most of this is anecdotal, from my own experience, and watching others. My most difficult three years in both of the churches I’ve served – and I’ve served them for over 14 years each – were the first three years. They were the most difficult in each place. In other words, there were more tests, more challenges, people questioned me, people weren’t sure about me yet. And so, it was after three years that they said, Okay, we’re going to give you a chance. And it takes those three years to be in a place where they’re going to say, Okay, you’re my pastor. And three years feels like a long time when you’re first getting started. But it takes that amount of time for this to emerge. And what I’ve seen is when churches explode, where there’s big conflict and unsettled conflict in the first three years, usually, a new pastor won’t make it past that point. So, if somebody is leaving a congregation after major conflict, and I have a conversation with them, I often say how long were you there? And you wouldn’t believe the number of times people say, Three years. So, it just became this marker for me, and I’ve watched as new and especially young pastors have gotten going, if I give them that goal of getting through the first three years, then they find that something transitions after that.
So, what does this have to do with interim ministry? You’re rarely there for a three-year period. As a matter of fact, though, there are some who will last three years. And I have to laugh because I remember when I was in Connecticut, there was a church near me that went through senior pastors so fast that I used to joke that their interims stayed longer than their permanent settled pastors. But Jim, you and I were talking right before this started, and you said that rarely do you walk in as an interim feeling like they’re entrusting all that authority, that, You are my pastor.
Jim Latimer
Yes, it’s that feeling when someone says that to me. I’ve served as a settled pastor two times, and as an interim pastor four times. But in the settled pastorates, both times there were people that would come to me and literally say the words, We’ve been waiting for you so long! You are my pastor! And I felt a kind of a weight on my shoulders. And as an interim, no one has said that to me yet – in that way.
Doug Bixby
Yes. And yet they receive you. And they’re not even asking the trust question with you. They don’t necessarily want you to earn their trust over an extended period of time. They give you enough trust, but they also don’t want you to break their trust in the midst of this time period. And so, that doesn’t mean you can’t challenge them. It doesn’t mean you can’t be engaged with them in ministry. And it doesn’t mean that in the first three years of a settled ministry, there isn’t impactful ministry taking place. There is. It’s just there’s a shift in the relationship when you get beyond that point. And I believe effective interim ministry can really help a congregation to have a better chance of reaching that place of more trust with the next settled pastor than they had with the last pastor.
And so, this is what I’m getting at when I talk about navigating the nonsense in the transition itself. And so, obviously, you want to help build trust, not break trust for the next settled pastor, in addition what you’re trying to accomplish in the short run. I have a really good friend, his name’s Darrell Griffin. He’s the pastor of Oakdale Covenant Church on the south side of Chicago. It’s a predominantly historically African American congregation. And he, Darrell, followed his predecessor who was there 30 years prior, and he spoke about still being in the transition zone, eight years into his ministry. He still felt like he was in transition with his congregation.
He used a metaphor in one of his books, where he spoke about arriving in the middle of the movie. And he says, anytime you’re a new, settled pastor, and in an historic church, it’s like you arrive in the middle of the movie – there’s a whole bunch of stuff that’s gone on in the past that we have no idea what we’re hitting when we hit some of the conflicts and difficulties or challenges that we might face in the midst of the congregation, once we arrive. And so, he spent a lot of time at the beginning of his ministry, seeking to understand the previous chapters of the story. And so, listening to people researching some of the bigger events that took place in the life of the church, reading old minutes and digging through old materials and historic documents, was a significant part of that learning and research.
And I think anytime you’re an interim, you’re arriving in the middle of the movie as well. I have this hunch in my heart that you don’t need to research nearly as hard as the next settled pastor does. But what you can really do is reflect back on the previous chapter in the life of that church and to help the church begin to reflect upon what they just went through with the last settled pastor, and now what they’re about to enter into with the new settled pastor. So, you reflect back, but you don’t reflect back quite as far. But there’s some really effective ministry that can take place if you help them to do a little research in relationship to what they’ve just been through as a church. And I think obviously, you would discern between how things went in the previous ministry: did the last senior minister leave with things in a major explosion? Calm? Settled? What just happened to this trip? is a big question. And not that you have to provide all the answers, but you can certainly ask some really good questions and help people to reflect upon their past experience.
Jim Latimer
Doug, let me just pause you there a moment, because the rich metaphors are pouring out here. So, you started here talking about the three first three years of a settled pastorate as being when trust is either made, or lost. It takes that long in settled ministry. Interims obviously don’t have that long. It’s a slightly different dynamic. But like settled pastors, interims also arrive in the middle of the movie. And so, what I’m hearing you say – and correct me if I’m wrong – is for the interim minister – the transitional minister – to be aware that they are arriving in the middle of the movie, and then helping the congregation orient themselves to see that they are in the middle of this movie, too – with helpful questions. And that engagement will have a significant impact on the congregation’s relationship – of building trust – with the next settled pastor.
Doug Bixby
Absolutely. Yes! And I think the interim gives a chance for a congregation to catch its breath. It’s interesting. I followed two interims in the two churches that I’ve served. The first interim that I followed was somebody who the church felt very comfortable with. He was older – a very gentle soul. And the church was in a phase where they needed some healing. It wasn’t dramatic. There wasn’t a dramatic end in the previous ministry. But it wasn’t the easiest of conclusions to a longer ministry. And they just needed some healing. And not only healing from the previous chapter, but the one before that, which was even more contentious, and maybe even had some deep-seated broken trust that took place. And it almost seemed like in the interim period, they did some healing from that deeper wound in their past. And it wasn’t anything fully intentional, as much as they just needed a time to catch their breath. And so, I started thinking about the difference between the role of healer and helper from the interim. I think all interims are going to have some healing and some helping. But there’s almost a discernment that somebody in intentional interim ministry might want to ask to see, Is this congregation predominantly in a mode where they need healing? Or they need helping?
Jim Latimer
Oh, that’s good. Doug.
Doug Bixby
See what I’m saying? There’s a discernment. If you come in with an agenda right away, of I’m going to be a helper, or I’m going to be a healer, you’re going to miss the mark. But if you come in and you listen to what happened in the last chapter especially, it creates space for you to discern: Is this church in a healing mode? Or are they in a place where they primarily need some help?
Jim Latimer
You’re exegeting the movie that you’ve just walked into!
Doug Bixby
Absolutely! Yes. Just figure it out. And again, it’s going to be a mix of both. But it’s going to be predominantly one or the other. Oh, let me just add this about the healer that I followed in my first church. An older member of the church came into my office one day and spoke fondly of the interim. She said, He fit us like an old shoe. And at first, it felt like a punch to the stomach, like, what does that mean? I fit like a new shoe? That I’m giving you blisters? And it’s kind of tight? But then I thought about it. And I’m like, You know what, I’m not an old shoe. I was 26 years old. I was the new guy. And presenting some challenge, but at the same time trying to earn their trust. And so, I was a little envious of how the old shoe fit. But at the same time, I started to realize, No, I have a role to play. And it’s not to be an old shoe. It’s to be the new shoe. And I appreciated the what the old shoe meant to that church. It fit them well. It gave them some space to heal, and to breathe a little bit before we really got started.
And you know, it took three years, but in those three years, I was able to earn their trust, and then the church really begins to grow and to thrive in the midst of the ministries that God had in mind for us. And so, it was a powerful interim that made a big difference in the ministry that I ended up having in that church.
And then I went from that church to another church in Massachusetts that was larger. It’s the one I’m currently serving. It was larger – had two services, there was lots of activity, a lot more responsibility than I was used to. And the interim prior to my serving here, was a helper, not a healer. He was somebody who came in and really got them, asked them a lot of questions about their past, helped them to process some of what had happened in their history, and really delved into the specifics of the ministries with a little bit more attention and intentionality. And I just looked back on the two experiences and realized that the second interim was a little more intentional in what he was doing. He brought a walking stick to the church when he began his ministry and put it up in front of the congregation, and leaned it against the pulpit. But it was with the message that he was going to walk pretty soon. He wasn’t going to be here forever. This was a temporary ministry. And he came in knowing that and he let them know that he was there for that short period of time, and he would do his job and fulfill his responsibilities. And he would try to help them along the way.
And it was a great ministry that ended up being very effective. And I gotta say, he and I sat down. He invited me to meet with him before I began my ministry, and we had a lunch together prior to my coming. And to this day, I thank him for spending that time with me – for the insights that he gave me. He gave me information that I’m not sure he knew what I would do with it. But it was helpful and insightful. And it allowed me to really take off running when I got here. And I was able to tweak a couple things that helped me to avoid some potential conflicts – some things that would have hit right off the bat had I not been aware of what was coming. He really helped me. And he surprised me. He was actually a fairly strong personality. And he said that some people rejected the offer to meet with him ahead of time. They didn’t want their perspectives tainted by his impressions or something along those lines. And in my mind, it was the exact opposite of that. It was just helpful, resourceful information that enabled me to hit the ground running. I was really grateful that he offered it and that we took the time to process his experience before I was able to come. It’s funny. I got I did get some warning of certain people, personality types, you know, this person’s a strong personality, or that person’s a strong personality. And I can see where some clergy would feel like maybe that’s tainting their perspective. And I’d say I took all that with a grain of salt.
One thing I think is important for both interims and permanent clergy is to make sure we’re not playing the blame game. This is where I think a lot of churches and church leaders get into trouble – is where we think that any one person could be to blame for all the problems that existed in the last chapter of the story, or even further back. It’s not about one person being the cause of those problems. And there are two books that came out in the 80s and 90s, that I think, actually contribute to this blame game that I’m talking about. Actually, they’re really good books in some ways, but I think that again, they need to be taken with a grain of salt. One was Marshall Shelley’s book, Well-Intentioned Dragons. It identified problematic people in your congregation who had good intentions, but they were like dragons and that they were destructive to your ministry. And Lloyd Rediger followed up that that book with a book called, Clergy Killers. It was basically casting the blame of the demise of clergy or their positions onto an individual.
And what I did when I wrote, Challenging the Church Monster, was to say, Hey, these individuals are sick, hurting people whom the church should be serving and helping in their life and ministry. But we get into trouble when our churches are structured in such a way that we give them authority without responsibility. And so, if you have a sick hurting person, and your nominating committee calls them up and says, Hey, would you serve on the deacon board? We really need somebody to fill this position to keep up with our bylaws. And they say, Gee, I really don’t have time. My life is filled with so much stress and anxiety. And then the nominating committee person says, No, no, no. You don’t really have to do anything. You just need to help us fulfill our bylaws. And so, what you do is take a sick, hurting person, and put them into leadership. You give them authority with no responsibility. And all of a sudden, they cause problems in the life – in the ministry of the church. And we call them a well-intentioned dragon, or a clergy killer. But what we just did was we fed that person to the church monster. And we said, Hey, we were willing to accept you into authority without responsibility. And that creates an opportunity for the church monster to rear its ugly head.
And so, I tend to see the deeper problems in the way churches function as being systematic versus individual causes. Sometimes we need to start evaluating our systems. I help churches a lot of times to simplify their church structure so we don’t have more positions than we have people. And where we don’t need to get to a place where we offer authority without responsibility. And so, I think it’s important to consider those things. I’m not sure the interim time is a great time to restructure a church, but you can certainly begin the process of helping them to think through maybe the opportunity to restructure. And both my books, Challenging the Church Monster, and Navigating the Nonsense, get at some of those issues and help churches to begin thinking about the possibility of simplifying your structure and not having too much structure for the size congregation that you’re in.
Jim Latimer
Good Doug. This has been quite a feast! It’s been really good. I won’t go through all the highlights, though there were many: the healer or helper, avoiding the blame game, giving authority without responsibility, arriving in the middle of the movie. These are all things that when those of us specializing in interim ministry – transitional ministry – when we’re aware of these, we can really help and serve the next settled pastor, if they choose to go to a settled pastor next. Sometimes a settled pastor isn’t the best way to go after an interim – it’s something else. But if it is a settled pastor, it’ll really help that initial period of trust building if we interims pay attention to some of these things. That’s great, Doug.
Doug Bixby
Yes. And as I discern this, the real nugget is to help the church reflect over what they’ve just been through in the last chapter of their life, and to give them an opportunity to talk about what they’ve been through and what they’re hoping for and look into the next chapter. And then passing that baton – being willing to meet with the next settled pastor if they want to meet with you. It can be a real gift to them. Or just giving them information in a phone conversation or an email – something along those lines.
Jim Latimer
Oh, that’s beautiful Doug. Thank you very much.
Doug Bixby
My pleasure.
Jim Latimer
It’s been a feast.
Doug Bixby
Thank you. Great to be with you, Jim. Blessings to you and to all of you.
Jim Latimer
Thank you. Bye now.