Managing the relationship with former pastors of the church in such a way that enhances the ministry of the next settled pastor – Transcript
Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers – best practices and quick help wisdom from the field. This is our collaborative Wisdom from the Field project, featuring short interviews with transitional interim ministers, and others, with practical help, and wisdom to offer those engaged in transitional ministry. Thank you for tuning into this episode of wisdom from the field.
Jim Latimer
And today, we have with us not one but two wise and skilled interim ministers. Peter Ilgenfritz is a transitional interim minister, while Todd Weir is a settled minister. And Todd is serving as a settled minister at the church where Peter served as interim for nearly two years immediately prior to Todd. Todd has now been serving his congregation for about 18 months.
Jim Latimer
And the reason this is particularly important is, of course, we recognize the value of feedback, right? There’s feedback that’s in the moment, and then there’s also feedback that comes further down the road after there’s been time to reflect. But this latter type of feedback is very difficult for interim ministers to receive since we enter our congregations, do our work, and then we leave. That’s what we do. That’s our job.
Jim Latimer
Rarely do interim ministers get detailed, thoughtful feedback about how things turned out after we left – the fruits of our labors, the rest of the story, if you will. Things like what the settled minister most appreciated about our work, or things the settled minister would have liked the interim to attend to that for some reason were not. Or maybe things that the interim minister did that the settled minister really appreciates, but didn’t realize that the interim did it – and perhaps really sweated over it!
Jim Latimer
The interim minister also may have wanted to tell the settled pastor things, and vice versa, but they never had the chance to do that. Until now. And so, in this episode too, our theme is going to be what is the interim’s role in dealing with former pastors of the congregation that are still kind of hanging around and kind of engaged? How do we deal with that? Every settled minister I’ve talked to says that’s one of the key things, key problems that they have. So, Peter, if you’d start this one, how did that go for you? How did you handle that?
Peter Ilgenfritz
Well, I think it was one of the most important parts of my ministry in Boothbay Harbor. It was very particular and specific, and it related to being in a small community on a small peninsula, where two former pastors who had really significant and distinct and important ministries in the life of the church for long periods of time, each of them, and also, you know, significant roles, connections in the wider community. How were things going with their relationship and relating to the church, both the settled pastor that had just retired as well as the previous pastor? And within the first number of months, it became clear that there was something to notice there around boundaries. How were each of them in distinct and different ways, kind of separating from the church, and some challenges that they had in doing so? Some clarity around roles and responsibilities that they were taking on, still?
Peter Ilgenfritz
It was a really interesting opportunity. There were some choices. And certainly, there was an importance of some just straightforward, you know, honest conversations about some things that had happened, and how that was going to present challenges for the settled pastor. And you know, it could have been easy to leave it as a conversation just about boundaries – stop doing this, don’t do that, etc. And, I don’t think that could have been so helpful for the settled pastor. And also, I think previous former pastors in the church, like these two, were going to play significant roles, and continue to live in the community, and perhaps they were going to be good colleagues for the settled pastor to have.
Peter Ilgenfritz
So, there was some opportunity, but some things about how they related needed to change. And what became revealed in that, was that there was not a boundary conversation, although those issues were there, but underneath that was a real pastoral conversation. And with both of them, I think it’s a gift of an interim time, because I realized now is the time to have a pastoral conversation with them about moving on. And about grief. And about letting go of the host of emotions that get tangled up in us when we’ve served a beloved community for a long period of time. And what it means to let go and put things down in the hands of forgiveness and grace. And to move on.
Jim Latimer
Peter, two important things I heard there, probably more than two, but two stand out right here. Number one, you realized that there is a role to play as the interim, because sometimes we interims, you know, there are a lot of things that present to us, and we need to decide and to prioritize pretty quickly: Okay, what am I going to deal with? What am I not going to deal with and just step over, etc. And so, you recognized that this is an issue, and not just for your ministry, but perhaps more importantly for the next settled pastor, that there’s some shifting that can happen. And number two, you dealt with them, you were proactive, but you dealt with them in a pastoral way. Not okay: Here’s the boundary! But, in a very pastoral. They’ve got grief. They’ve got feelings. And that is beautiful. And Todd, from your vantage point, how did Peter’s work go for you?
Todd Weir
I think it’s really helpful. One of the things that occurred to me as Peter was talking is, who pastors to the pastors, especially retired pastors? And as we have fewer and fewer conference and associate conference ministers, that role often gets lost. We have two judicatory staff for all of Maine, right? They don’t necessarily have the time to do that work with every transition. And so, the interim role there can be really critical.
Todd Weir
And it is more than boundaries, and the do’s and the don’ts. It’s really, Who are you now? And, Who do you need to be? And, How are you going to be in a way that serves the church, and this next pastor? And while I wasn’t a part of the conversation, I have a sense that that happened. It’s a small town. You can’t move through without bumping into people here. And so, it becomes vitally important to have that groundwork done. And we’ve had a couple of really lovely things that we had a going away party for a long-term member of the church who moved to Ohio. And there were some questions around, you know, it would be great if the two former pastors could be a part of that, because they worked very closely together, and it’d be great for this parishioner who was saying goodbye to have them there, as a piece of that. And, you know, I felt comfortable enough, given how things have gone the first few months to be able to say to them, you know, I’ll invite them, I’d be glad to have them come. And we had a moment where the former pastor said, hey, you know, we should all stand up here together. And we did the three of us did something together and that was a special moment for the church to see all three of us there together, kind of spontaneously in that moment. But that wouldn’t have happened if there wasn’t some trust built. That invitation would have been tougher to make.
Todd Weir
And I’ll just also highlight that Peter pointed to the need for some healing especially going back two pastors ago. It’s not a big secret that this church had an embezzlement situation. And two pastors ago, that pastor left after going through all of that, and you know, there’s always some feelings about that, and I think going back into some of that and saying, you know, nobody really remembers that anymore. So, you need to let it go. And I think that that’s really important.
Peter Ilgenfritz
That’s so helpful to hear that Todd. And I think coming into a setting as an interim is a question that I often ask at the forefront which is, Where or what’s in the way of thriving? What’s in the way of life here? And I think that’s what enabled me with my relationship with the two former pastors to see that, yes, there were things in the way of their life, and being able to talk to them about that, What could you imagine being in the relationship where you could relate to the church in a new way and have a new story?
Jim Latimer
Peter, the big gift that I hear you gave to Todd here is that you were proactive with the former settled pastors who are still around. It’s a small town. People know each other. So just saying that they’re not supposed to be involved just doesn’t work. That’s not how human beings function, right? And I don’t think that’s even healthy. So, you were proactive. You reached out. You had, I imagine, one-on-one conversations, maybe several of them, just colleague to colleague, How’s it going for you? What griefs are there? And then how can we have a relationship, you, me – us – with the congregation that is healthy for everybody going forward? Did I hear that right?
Peter Ilgenfritz
Yes. That’s exactly what I mean. And the big pivot with me was rather than just laying down the law – and that’s not to dismiss the importance of having conversations about boundaries and what works and what doesn’t – but rather framing that approach from the level of their own life and ministry. And their own needs to grieve, and to let go, and to put things down, and to live into a new story, which would open up the opportunity for whatever that story was going to be. That way, the settled pastor and them are able to have a new story, instead of their being stuck in an old story that yet hadn’t been put down.
Jim Latimer
Wow, wow. Anything you want to add to that, Todd?
Todd Weir
The only thing I’d add to what Peter’s saying is about it’s being both a pastoral and a boundaries conversation. And it is helpful to do both. Because if the new settled pastor has to come in and have the boundaries conversation it’s just that much harder. Because, I’m staying here, right? And if I’m the one that has to have that boundaries conversation, then I become the bad guy. Whereas, the interim can have that conversation and it’s not going to follow you if they don’t like that conversation. And so that’s just really helpful. Because they’ve already heard it and had a chance to reflect on it.
Todd Weir
One of the things I realized is that if I come in and then I have this conversation, if it’s already happened, then I’m just reinforcing the conversation that’s already happened, rather than, What? I’ve never heard of that? What’s wrong with you? Why can’t you be more collegial? And of course, I want to come back and do this funeral. And the last thing I’ll say on this is that the idea of what boundaries are changes generationally, and often, if you’re coming in and serving where retired pastors are, they may have had completely different training around what boundaries are. Things that were okay 10 or 15 years ago are not mainstream anymore. And so, it comes as a surprise to people sometimes. Like, What? No! That’s not how I learned it! Well, that’s where it is now. So that’s also a gift, I think to say, This is where things are now.
Jim Latimer
Wow. That’s really helpful. It brings to mind this idea that boundaries are a part of a culture. Their understanding shifts over time. And our job isn’t to serve the boundaries, the boundaries should serve us. And so, we’ve got to talk about that. How do they do that now in this particular time and place with this particular group of people with this particular group of individual needs?
Peter Ilgenfritz
Yes. And I think boundary issues come up because there’s deep love. There’s really deep love for these people, and somebody died. Or there’s deep, deep love for this church. And it’s also putting that love in a different place. How that love is going to be made known and carried forth, will of course, be in different ways, or maybe not as they hoped and dreamed it would be. And that’s okay. That’s the way that love unfolds and grows and works. And that is true for a lot of us in ministry. We have deep love, and yet leaving the place means I have to let that love – I always will have that love for that community and those people – but I have to let it move and take new form and new shape with new leadership and a new community.
Jim Latimer
Wow. Peter Todd, that’s a great place to stop in this particular segment. Thank you so much for your wisdom and your time and your thoughtfulness. I’m just loving this conversation! So, let’s pause here. Thank you so much, Todd and Peter for your time and sharing these details. It’s great.
More Bits Of Wisdom from Rev. Peter Ilgenfritz
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