What Enabled My Congregation to Communicate Better in Moments of Tension- Transcript
Jim Latimer
Jim Latimer 00:03
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministry, best practices and quick help wisdom from the field. This is our collaborative Wisdom from the Field project, featuring short interviews with transitional interim ministers and others with practical help and wisdom to offer those engaged in transitional ministry. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Wisdom from the Field.
Jim Latimer 00:27
Today we have the joy of having with us Reverend Alisa Dickhoff. Alisa is a young United Church of Christ pastor of uncommon depth and courage in how she lives her life, personally and professionally. In particular, Alisa is masterful at helping parishioners communicate better in times of tension. Consequently, she has led her congregation to shift its culture to one where conflict is worked through from a place of love rather than from places of anger or power. And given how many pastors and congregations can benefit from her experience and wisdom, I invited her to speak to this today on the topic what has enabled people in her congregation to communicate better in moments of tension. And I tell you, at least I’m all ears, and a lot of other people are too. So, thank you for joining us. Where shall we start?
Alisa Dickhoff 01:21
Thank you, Jim. It’s wonderful to be a part of this, and I appreciate the opportunity to share. So, when I stepped into the senior pastor role here about a year and a half ago, I was thinking about what are my priorities in ministry? And I realized that the number one priority for me was the people in the church. And early on in my first few months here, some folks came forward with different conflicts that they were having either one on one with another person or someone sharing about difficulties in a particular working group of folks who were coming together like a committee, which we call Working Groups. And I found that that these conflicts really weighed on me and then I wanted folks to feel like this was a space where they were valued and safe and loved and cared for and treated well. And it seemed like that was generally people’s intention, but sometimes they might not realize it if they were doing something hurtful to someone else. And so, I began to navigate having some hard conversations.
Jim Latimer 02:57
That’s where the courage comes in, right?
Alisa Dickhoff 02:59
Yeah, and these conversations, you know, I get anxious about them. It’s not fun for me to navigate these tensions as well. And so, sharing some of my vulnerability coming into that and modeling that has helped the other folks in the room be able to share their vulnerabilities as well. And I’m going to start with a personal example of a congregant who I found that we just seem to be talking past each other a lot and both of us seem to be having some ouch moments from what the other person was saying. And after this happened a few times, there was a moment where I thought, I need to call this person, and do it because I care about this relationship, and if I don’t name what I’m experiencing, it’s going to keep happening.
Alisa Dickhoff 04:04
And I was really nervous to make that call, but I called and I said, You know what I’m telling you now is, like, hey, this feels a little uncomfortable for me, but I wanted to tell you how I felt after our conversation today, and see if we can explore what might be going on here. And I could tell over the phone that it was a little uncomfortable for that person as well. But they also said early on, like, I appreciate you reaching out. Yeah, great. And so, we talked through it. Everything was not smooth after that, but we established some ways of communicating, like, if I say something to you that that doesn’t make sense or feels like an ouch, for you to say, Hey, what do you mean by that? and explore that. And I’ll do the same. If you say something to me and it’s not sitting right, then I’m going to ask more about it. And so over many, many conversations, that relationship changed so much, and now I feel is in a place of trust and a really great minister to congregant relationship, where we work together on many things and things go smoothly.
Alisa Dickhoff 05:38
And so, I’ve encouraged folks who come with relationship conflicts or tensions to go to the person that they’re experiencing those conflicts with, and in a loving way, say, I care about this relationship, or I care about our work together in the church. And so, I want to tell you what I’m experiencing. And this isn’t easy for me to do this. I feel really uncomfortable doing this, but it matters, and you matter. And so, I want to tell you what’s going on.
Alisa Dickhoff 06:25
And those conversations have really led to improve relationships over time. Again, similar to my situation, I asked them, if that person does something again, in the moment it’s really important to offer that feedback of like, Hey, this was what I was talking about, this is what has hurt me, so that they can see what their words or actions in the moment, so that they can pinpoint that instead of thinking, What are they talking about. I never do that. I haven’t done that to them. Because we can just not realize the impact that we have on others whose personalities are different from ours.
Jim Latimer 07:11
Yep. Let me pause you a minute, Alisa. What I heard there that was really important, is often when we’re feeling kind of nervous, if we have a script about what we’re going to say, if we have it in our minds, it’s easier to then take that step, right? So rather than, oh, hell, you really hurt me when you….! This what you’re not saying, you’re speaking about yourself. Bill, when you said that, I wanted to share with you how it felt for me, right? So, you’re modeling for them, and you’re giving them a script, not a word for word script, but a way in their mind to be able to approach it in a way that’s helpful, right? It’s not blaming the other person.
Alisa Dickhoff 08:00
Yes exactly. And a key point of this is, in the church, we really have this space where we love and care for one another. And so that’s important to show up in the way that we approach folks. It’s not about someone needing to be right. A lot of times, power is involved too, like someone’s place and maybe navigating sharing responsibilities, or who’s perceived as having been there longer, or higher up in whatever committee or council they’re working on. And so sometimes those things all come into play, and folks might be nervous to approach someone who maybe has bad behavior, which is kind of a second point here.
Alisa Dickhoff 08:57
Sometimes folks just have bad behavior. And in the church, sometimes we see bullying with trying to hold on to doing something the way that you might want to do it, or holding on to a title or holding on to a specific activity. And once you hold a position where you have been in for a while, or you have some respect in it, or maybe you have a bullying behavior, you kind of get away with it, because folks might not know how to approach that. And that was something that we noticed a little bit as well, of there being different committees that had some folks who were acting like bullies during the meetings. Again, like wonderful people, beloved people, but having moments with behavior that wasn’t appropriate.
Alisa Dickhoff 10:01
And so, what I found helpful in a couple of these committees where that was happening was asking to come to a meeting. And modeling how to respond when somebody is bullying. So, when somebody’s raising their voice and kind of arguing to make a point, again being vulnerable and saying, like, Whoa, I feel again a little vulnerable saying this, but I care about you, and I care about this group and it’s not okay for us to yell at one another. That’s not the right way to get a point across. And just kind of helping name what’s happening in the room, whatever it might be. Name what’s happening in there. But again, in a loving way. And addressing the behavior. And I have found that after coming to a few meetings and being there to support, not being there to be in charge, but just being there, whenever that behavior starts creeping up again to lovingly name it, that others learn to do it too. And so, then they can start operating in a healthy way with without that support, because they’ve learned how to address someone in a loving way whenever inappropriate behavior comes up.
Jim Latimer 11:43
That’s great. And I was wondering, until you said that, how do you hold people accountable? And you just answered it. The pastor’s got to model this. If the pastor doesn’t model it, it’s really hard for this kind of thing to take hold, right? And then, as you model it, other people can pick it up. Plus, you can intentionally kind of train others in this simple skill that you just demonstrated here. Not stepping over bad behavior. Bad behavior as you described, someone raising their voice or having bullying behavior, especially if they’ve been there for a while, that becomes a norm in the culture, and people just think, Oh, that’s just the way it’s done around here. We have to put up with this. And you’re saying, No, you don’t. You don’t have to put up with it. It’s not good for us, it’s unhealthy. It’s detracting from our ministry.
Alisa Dickhoff 12:48
Yes, yeah. And likely, the minister won’t be alone in having those skills. I’m certainly not the only one in our leadership who models that too, and that’s helpful. It might be that you have a moderator or other folks who are really good at this already, and then you can just join in on that, so that maybe they’re not the only person doing it. And that might continue to kind of trickle through the culture. So, it could be that you look and see who’s already doing this, and noticing that mand nurturing that. And then I think you’ll find that so many other people in the congregation have those skills once they learn that there’s space for it. You’re modeling it, but likely they already have it too from a work setting or from somewhere else in life, but they’ve gotten used to that being the culture at church. And so it could be that you see folks naturally, after they see it a little bit like, okay, yep, this is what we’re doing, finally, all right, I can do this! And they know how to model it, too.
Jim Latimer 14:10
That’s so important what you said there. First of all, having the courage, then having a knowledge of how to approach it, then seeing the opportunities, which typically are many, but stepping into them and modeling and showing not only the skill, but that there often is space. Because if the bad behavior has just been accepted for a long time, people won’t know that there is space for that in the culture to help people learn how to communicate better with each other. So that’s an important part. There is space. And I love what you said that lot of people probably already have this talent, this skill, that they’re using in the workplace, but they don’t think to bring it to church!
Alisa Dickhoff 14:54
Yes, or maybe they did bring it, and they were shut down at some point, and so then they were afraid to use it again, and so we can help open that door. And then I find that it takes a lot of follow up with some folks, because it could just be that is their personality in all walks of life, and they are still loved and have space here. But it might be that there’s just a lot of checking in, and calling their attention when they’re doing something. But again, if you don’t have some loving support surrounding that, it’s really hard to bring their attention to this and them not feel hurt or angry. So, it’s really important that you are also like sharing love with that person and having a relationship, and not just trying to do the correcting, or else they’re really not going to know what to do with that.
Alisa Dickhoff 16:08
And so, I have found that I get closer and closer to some folks who sometimes have inappropriate behavior. That way I can tell them without really, at this point having to think much about it when it happens, because we are close enough that I can say, Hey, that email, you know, that didn’t sound cool. They’re like, Yeah, yeah, I should have taken more time before responding.
Jim Latimer 16:39
Good. Thank you, Alisa. The follow up is so important as well, and continuing to do it in a loving way, not just you, but others around them, so that they can accept correction when it when it comes. Beautiful! This has been wonderful, Alisa. You’ve laid out in a very clear way, what has worked for your congregation, and I can say, certainly from my experience, what you do, what you’re modeling there can be very helpful for a lot of our colleagues, our ordained colleagues, as well as other leaders in congregations. So, thank you very much. Best wishes to you. I look forward to speaking again soon. Is there anything else you want to add here at the end as we wrap up?
Alisa Dickhoff 17:29
No. Thank you so much again for the opportunity to share and I think it’s also fair for me to say that the setting that I stepped into, this wasn’t a prevalent issue. So, I wasn’t stepping into a setting where this was a major concern, because there might be a different approach for somebody who’s stepping into a church culture that really has a lot to work through. And so, I offer that caution where there is, I think, lower intensity of relationship tensions here.
Jim Latimer 18:16
Good point. That’s helpful to understand. All right, Alisa, best wishes to you and I look forward to speaking again. Take care. Okay, bye.
Alisa Dickhoff 18:28
Bye.