From Pastor-centered to Congregation-Centered: Finding Joy in the Midst of Uncertainty – Transcript
Jim Latimer 00:02
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministry best practices and quick help, wisdom from the field. This is our collaborative Wisdom from the Field project, featuring short interviews with transitional Interim Ministers and others with practical help and wisdom to offer those engaged in transitional ministry and ministry more broadly. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Wisdom from the Field.
Jim Latimer 00:28
Today, we welcome back to our podcast Reverend Peter Ilgenfritz. I know Peter as a highly skilled and joyful pastor who brings an uncommon love for and devotion to those he serves. As such, he has a knack for bringing out the best in people and helping them connect that to serving God in ways that are deeply meaningful to them, especially in times of uncertainty. He is expert at the art of shared leadership. I was in conversation with him when he accepted his current call several years ago, and I have watched and listened with amazement and smiles as they have found a way forward when they had nearly given up. So, Peter, if you would describe where things were when you started, a peek into where things are now, and then some of the key highlights and maybe low lights along the way. Thanks,
Peter Ilgenfritz 01:17
Jim, it’s great to be here with you today, and fun to share our story from Littleton, New Hampshire, which is in the north country of New Hampshire, just past Franconia Notch. For those of you been up 93 and right before 93 turns into Vermont, and a whole other world 10 minutes away. I was called here in the fall, Labor Day weekend, of 2022. So we’re coming out of COVID, and a congregation that’s been dispersed, disconnected, just coming back in person to church, and needs to build up trust, a need to identify and celebrate what is here versus all the things that aren’t, and to help them lean forward into the future. And I have to say, coming up on four years here now as Designated Term pastor, we are at a great place where joy has returned to the room, deep connections, deeper care, and while the future is still unknown, a sense that we have what we need to continue to walk step by step into God’s unknown future before us.
Jim Latimer 02:50
Great, and you started this three-quarter time Designated, right?
Peter Ilgenfritz 02:56
I did, in a creative way. I can say a few things about that. An interesting model. I’m their very first three-quarter time or part-time pastor. How we set that up is that I have worked full-time for three weeks. So, it really frees me up to be present, be here, respond to needs, and then I’m away for a week, and critically away for a weekend, and that is really enabled me to truly be three-quarter time. And when I’m away, I work with lay members here in the congregation to lead worship, to preach, and so forth, and I do make it clear that if a pastoral emergency, pastoral issue comes up during the time I’m away, I do encourage, invite people to text me, call me, leave me a message, and I say I will get back to you when I am free and available to do so. That’s been super helpful. It keeps me in the loop when we’ve had important critical things, and they know there’s somebody out there. It is not used very much, but when it is, it’s been really important.
Jim Latimer 04:13
But that gives you time to hike, get out on the AT and do stuff that you love.
Peter Ilgenfritz 04:17
Oh, my gosh yes! This is a congregation that loves to hear, where am I going to my next adventure, and they get to see me coming back and being happier, smiling. And I do have to say, with that schedule, I have joked to the congregation, they really do get to see me at my best, because I’m here, and then I can go, Oh my gosh, I really need to step away. Next week I’m stepping away, and then.. and then,
Jim Latimer 04:44
Okay. So, how did you start? What was it like when you first came there? I remember our conversations as you were thinking about that, but I want to hear your words.
Peter Ilgenfritz 04:54
Well, a lot of newness for me. This is my first time serving a small congregation. My first time living in a small town. I live in an apartment. It is a wonderful 11-minute walk down a very poppy, joyful little main street here in Littleton. So, a lot were new, but a lot of things were challenging. Their previous senior pastor had been here 10 years and had retired over a year ago. Since that time, they were unable to find an interim pastor. And so, the congregation filled in for that past year, invited a host of preachers and ministers from throughout the town, across the theological perspective, to come in and preach. That was an incredibly important time in the life of the church. They got to realize and name their own theology that they hold. They got to claim and take on church leadership. It was a very empowering time for the church. At the end of that time, they were continuing to search without a lot of good leads for a pastor, and then I showed up on their doorstep.
Peter Ilgenfritz 06:22
When I came, relationships in the congregation were pretty low. They were coming out of Covid, people who didn’t know each other really well, even though, Boy, that person sat in front of me for years, but I don’t really know them, much left has spoken to them. And we’re coming out in a time of great political turmoil and tension as well, and a politically diverse purple congregation out of that time.
Peter Ilgenfritz 06:53
So, lots of stressors, lots of unknowns, lots of coming back in, and then I show up on the scene, and what became clear in that time, where there were three things that we needed to strengthen and work on. The first and foremost was around trust. Secondly, discovering and naming, celebrating what are the gifts that are here in the room, and the third thing, working on leadership as a leadership development as a constant in our way of being as a community.
Peter Ilgenfritz 07:29
I could just start with trust. I think I was a low trust candidate when I came in. And again, I’m really the only one that showed up on the scene as like a live possibility, that, Wow, maybe Peter. But Peter has never been to, lived in the North Country of New Hampshire. Never worked in a small church, never in a small town. I’ve spent most of my career, 25 years in Seattle at a large urban church. They know I’ve been in Booth Bay Harbor, Maine. They know that’s been COVID. I’m a pretty much unknown, and do I know the culture? Will I respect the culture here? And I’m also openly gay, and I am their first openly LGBTQ pastor of the church. Who is this guy?
Jim Latimer 08:28
That’s a lot.
Peter Ilgenfritz 08:29
Why would we choose to have him come? But in the first conversation on Zoom we had, I was so moved and clear that here is a group of people, and we can talk together. And that was my key of, Oh, wow, we could…there’s a possibility here. And I must say that’s continued to be true. There were a group of people that we can continue to speak together. It doesn’t mean we always agree, but we can talk. We talk through things That’s been key.
Peter Ilgenfritz 09:06
So, I think building trust was the number one thing, and when I came, I named that for them. They had hired me initially as a one-year interim, and I had brought up the idea of this term, of this Designated Term, Pastor. I said, I think if I look at the work you want to do, claiming your leadership moving forward, I think it’s going to take you three or four years to get to that place. They were smart, and they said, “Wow, this designated term, we don’t quite get that. We get interim. I was here for just a few months, and it became clear of, Oh yes, I think we need you here for a longer period of time.
Peter Ilgenfritz 09:49
It’s not a classic interim. And the Associate Conference Minister at that time came in and said, I think, what you need and what you’re doing is Designated Term pastor work. So, we switched very early on to say that more clearly names the tasks and the timeline for what we need to do during that time.
Peter Ilgenfritz 10:12
So, I think during that time what we did is set up some patterns and ways of bringing communication back into the room to build up trust. So, one of those was with our church leaders. We set up a half hour conversation have every week with our moderator, our assistant moderator, and our former moderator, and the three of us, the four of us meet every week, and that is continued even with changes in that leadership. Every week, half an hour to check in ourselves of how are we and check in on what’s going on in the life of the church, and what needs to be done to address that? That’s been key.
Peter Ilgenfritz 11:07
I’ve added on to that a weekly Bible study, half an hour, 8:30 in the morning. Another way to connect with both theologically about the scripture coming up and set up some patterns with staff, an informal time, but a time to check in with our office manager. We have a fabulous office manager who frees me up to do other work besides church administration and management at the forefront of my work with our church custodian. And to sit down every week with our music director, and as we go through what’s happened in worship, what’s our worship series coming up? Frees her up to pick hymns, music, and so forth. So, some patterns of meeting together.
Jim Latimer 11:56
Some structure. You put structure in place.
Peter Ilgenfritz 11:59
Yes. We added structure into a lot of unknown and needed areas. And that held carried over into the congregation, and Sunday mornings. So, discovering the gifts that are already here in the room. Our church is a very typical church in many ways. Maybe if we got all of our people together, of who’s connected with related to this, people, we could get maybe 50 or 60 people. We were getting in worship when I arrived about 20 folks, and now I’d say, we get between 30 and 40 folks who come each Sunday. And really moving from, If only we had this, or this or this, to What do we have here in the room? So, recognizing the gifts we have in the room and calling forth and inviting those forth.
Peter Ilgenfritz 12:57
So, one of the ways to again build trust, relationship, and identifying what’s in the room, is with how we’ve done worship. And I think a couple of key pieces with that. They’ve had a practice of a lay leader from the church welcoming people to church every Sunday, doing the announcements. That’s the first voice you hear. And that is a treasure! It’s their voice, their community, their leading of worship, and so they come in with that, and lead through other parts of the service.
Peter Ilgenfritz 13:33
At the beginning of the service, they used to do a responsive reading, and I quickly pivoted from that, and instead I invited a question into the room, and I got people to get up out of their pews and talk to each other, and meet with, and gather with each other. That met with both high anxiety from some who hate things like passing of the piece. But I was asking them to even do something more: to share a conversation, share your name, and then I collected back, what did you hear? And during that, I knew we were on to something good, Jim. When folks who said to me, “Oh, I just don’t like that getting up and talking to people, but I realized the difference that it’s making. We’re getting to know each other!” And I thought there’s the treasure, people doing something that, though it’s not their favorite thing to do, or they wouldn’t choose to do, but boy, they’ve seen the import of it.
Peter Ilgenfritz 13:33
And now I’d say, almost four years later, it is difficult to get them sitting down. And the key with that also is they become the welcomers! We can get folks to come to the church, sit in the back pew. I never even get to say hello to them, but I look out and, say, Oh, they’re connecting with whom they need to. They’re connecting with people in the pew. They’re connecting and making conversations that folks know all about them, and I haven’t even said hello to them.
Peter Ilgenfritz 14:21
So, it’s freeing up that piece. And I think a second key worship piece is building trust and relationship and calling forth gifts. My very first Sunday here, I preached and I asked a rhetorical question: I wonder what you would do in that situation? And somebody answered, and I thought, Wow, this is a treasure. So, they answered, and then somebody else had a response, and that has put us on to a way of preaching and a way of being in worship together that I always bring forth in some level in preaching, but it’s been a wonderful way to get into a text as more of a Bible study. I have places, pieces I want to ask. I seek to identify good questions to bring forth. And boy, we have an incredibly responsive congregation that wants to bring forth and share out of their life experience, their perspective. And I become a facilitator of hearing that, calling that, and bringing that together in the congregation. So, I think those have been key.
Jim Latimer 16:09
Yeah, let me pause you, Peter. This is very.. this is so rich. What’s pouring out here! When pastors start in congregations, sometimes there’s the assumption that the people in the congregation already know each other pretty well. And what I heard you say, and my experience, is that often they don’t. They don’t know each other very well.
Peter Ilgenfritz 16:30
Right.
Jim Latimer 16:30
And what you did, you recognized that, and you facilitated it such that they got to know each other better, which they resisted, but now are loving. And as they get to know each other better and better, then they participate more, it’s more joyful. So that specific thing of helping the folks in the congregation learn about each other’s lives and stories is great. And it takes facilitation.
Peter Ilgenfritz 16:58
It does. And a lot of the role I play in worship is of facilitation. Like is very common in other churches, the prayer comes from the congregation. So, I invite, Where, what thanksgivings and joys do we begin with? What other prayers do we bring? And so, people share that. I expand that out to others, and invite us to a response.
Peter Ilgenfritz 17:27
So, the prayer comes from them. They’re engaged in the sermon. They’re engaged in the welcoming and greeting one another – that time – and also in church leadership. So, when I’m not here, I work with folks to plan the service, do the bulletin, and work with them on and support them in reflection on the scripture and their sermon that they’ll be doing. And that’s been so empowering. It’s just born great fruit to a place that now we have a young woman here at church who, first time, wanted to step up into leadership, and now she’s a Member in Discernment with the New Hampshire conference. And so that’s just an example of that.
Peter Ilgenfritz 17:34
And think a final thing I’d want to say about what was needed, was calling forth leadership. One of the pieces I have really appreciated about a Designated Term pastor, and seeing my role here as very much in that same interim seat, is that I am here to help them live into and become the church that they are called to be, and to call forth those gifts, versus my idea or thoughts about who I think they ought to be, or what I think they need. And so, to really keep bringing the conversation, the questions, back to them and helping them discern and do that.
Peter Ilgenfritz 19:03
That’s had a huge effect, of course, in our church council leadership. How those conversations happen, giving those leadership questions back to them, helping to facilitate that. We have three times a year morning retreats with our church leaders, and inviting others in the congregation to join us. So, we have more time to deal with some of the big questions. I, again, facilitate that, and how that work happens in small groups, calling back the wisdom of the small group, and doing that discernment.
Peter Ilgenfritz 19:39
And so, leadership development is such a key core of everything we do here, and empowering, equipping, supporting people to lead. Our music director, freeing her up to do work that sometimes she’s called upon to do, but otherwise hasn’t – pick our hymns. That’s her expertise! Really bringing her in on the worship planning, that development. Bringing our worship team into brainstorming ideas for a worship series. I talked a lot here about getting your fingerprints on it. I need them to get their fingerprints on it, help them to shape it, make it into something. And then I can help craft and bring things together.
Peter Ilgenfritz 20:27
I think those have been some of the key things. Coming back to identify what’s the real need, building trust, calling forth and helping them see recognize the gifts that are in the room, and working regularly on the leadership that is here. And I think through that work, the church has identified a new mission statement, done practical work. Drawn up new bylaws. Drawn up a leadership structure to further simplify the work here. And identified where their leadership is and what it frees me up to do. And clarifying then, in a part-time position, what they need me to do in this context is support worship on on Sunday mornings, pastoral care and outreach, and community outreach, and working continually on this leadership development conversation.
Jim Latimer 21:32
And let me just say, too, because you said you have a new contract. Is that right?
Peter Ilgenfritz 21:39
I do. A real discernment over the past year. My contract’s coming to an end as a Designated Term pastor, and in this context, I could stay on as the quote settled pastor. I’ve had high resistance to the word settled, because that’s not my interest. My interest is continuing to work on goals, helping their leadership empowerment. So, in fact, with some discernment and work together, I will be staying on as the quote, settled pastor, beginning in September. We’ve set that up in some creative ways. My time will be half-time. What’s most important for them is keep up my number of Sundays that I am here – 36 Sundays a year. And freeing up the rest of my time to fill it in: when is that needed? And how is that needed?
Peter Ilgenfritz 22:28
Every three months, have a conversation with the personnel committee about how I have spent my time. Keeping a record of that, checking in with them. Is that where I should be, where you need me to be spending my time? And then looking at the next three months forward, this is where I anticipate needs being, anticipate my time being spent. So really working for some good accountability around that model.
Peter Ilgenfritz 23:05
It’s an experiment. We can change it, tweak it, and every year that will be renewed, is that agreement. So, I think some good working forward with the changes in their life, their needs, and what I need. And as I lead forward, a key issue in their future, like all of our futures, is a lot of unknowns, including, is there a pastor on the other side of this? Littleton’s a strong, good church, and with a huge lack of pastors here seeking positions. Reality in the North Country is we have to work together. So regular monthly ecumenical services with our Methodist Church down the street, the UCC Church next door in Franconia, that’s helped strengthen it. All of our churches depended upon lay leadership, and lay leaders lead those services every month. So, it’s helping to find partners, places where we can really strengthen each other and call forth and celebrate leadership, and make the church what we experience the church being here today: a joyful connected place that knows the gifts that are in the room and has the gifts to step forward into the opportunities that are before them.
Jim Latimer 24:41
And the people said, Amen! Peter, that’s fabulous. As we move into wrap up here, I’m just amazed at how things have developed, and the intentionality with which you and the congregation have allowed the spirit to move, and the structure you brought in around communication, intention around leadership development. These things have proved so fruitful. And recognizing that all of ministry, but especially transitional ministry, it’s all an experiment! And so free yourself to experiment. That takes a lot of pressure off. Let’s just experiment, and if works great! In three months let’s look at it again, and if it doesn’t work, then we’ll tweak it, or shift it.
Peter Ilgenfritz 25:35
Exactly. And that’s nice to know those things have been part of our life together: simple structures freeing people up to have an experiment. It’s no longer about right and wrong, good or bad. Experiment! What are we discovering? Asking, Who needs to be here for this conversation? And seeing my role again, as much more facilitating conversations, and building connection, relationship and seeing that God is at work, present here now in our life together, and building up the faith, hope and love that we can walk into that future with God together.
Jim Latimer 26:21
Beautiful. Beautiful, Peter. Thank you so much for your generosity with your heart and your spirit, and your wisdom. This is going to help a lot of other pastors and congregations. Thanks so much, Peter.
Peter Ilgenfritz 26:33
Thank you, Jim.
Jim Latimer 26:34
Okay. Bye,
Peter Ilgenfritz 26:35
Bye, bye.
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