Managing Anxiety During Liminal (In Between) Times – Transcript

Jim Latimer: Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers: best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Reverend Henry Schoenfield. Henry is an experienced interim in New England and maybe other places too, and he’s also a spiritual director and a professional certified coach. But I want to speak especially today about his interim experience. Henry, what would you like to share with our listeners in the segment here?

Henry Schoenfield (he/him): When we’re talking about WHY, the WHY of interim ministry for me, the basic intention is to be able to walk with people at liminal times. That’s been the WHY of ministry for me throughout my years of ministry – walking with people during liminal times – the “in between” times.

That has taken shape in a hospital, and hospice chaplaincy. It’s taken shape in training chaplains. And it’s now taking shape in interim ministry, because there is something special, some really potent about these spaces in between. There’s a saying in Tibetan Buddhism about the time between birth and rebirth that they call the bardos. When we’re going through those times in between, the belief in Tibetan Buddhism is that the soul has the most potential for growth when it’s free of a body.

It’s similar for us when we’re in between. When a congregation is in between times it has the potential for growth. And part of the reason to be intentional in interim ministry, of course, is around anxiety, because liminal times always come with anxiety. However, if we can come alongside people, then we can help to quell the anxiety enough so that they can look into some of the issues that are underneath the surface.

Jim Latimer: Let me focus a bit more on you. Why does Henry Shoenfield want to do this work?

Henry Schoenfield (he/him): Well, partially because I’ve been in these liminal spaces my entire life. I just discovered that’s really how I discovered God – in these spaces in between – and being drawn into the mystery of God, and being drawn deeper and deeper into life. And so what’s happened here, you know the phrase: “What you’ve been given freely as a gift, offer freely as a gift.” I am aware of the ways that my teachers, my spiritual directors, coaches and God have companioned me during in between times in my life, and what a difference it’s made. It’s just a natural to offer that back.

And I have this deep love for intensity when things are really real – to be able to be with people in times of crisis, in times of change, in times of upheaval, makes me feel alive. And I know that it’s a great benefit for them.

Jim Latimer: So part of what I’m hearing is that you have benefited from these liminal times, these in between times, though they are anxiety riven by definition, right? And yet, you still feel drawn to them, and your experience, your temperament, your personality, plus your skill set, also matches. You seem to come alive in these times! You light up, whereas, other people might not. They would rather be more in the pastoral time rather than the intensity of a liminal time, and that’s a temperament piece, that’s a skill set.

I appreciate what you’re saying – that interim times for congregations, which we’re defining as between settles pastors – are liminal times, in between times, and therefore necessarily anxious times.

As we move into our last minute or two, what counsel or guidance would you have for someone considering becoming an interim minister?

Henry Schoenfield (he/him): The first thing that comes up is to pay attention to your prayer life. If you’re going to companion others through times of anxiety, then there needs to be something that anchors you when you’re feeling anxious yourself. And I don’t know anything better for anchoring us in anxiety than prayer, which isn’t to pray away the anxiety. It is to create a ground that strong enough, that when the winds come, when the water is buffing against us, that our roots are strong enough to withstand anything. Maybe that’s prayer for you, maybe it’s something else that anchors you, but know what it is that helps to anchor you. Really invest in that.

Jim Latimer: Ooooo – “know what it is that really anchors you.” Anchors you in what?

Henry Schoenfield (he/him): Anchors your own spirit; anchors your own person, your whole self. What is it that’s going to help you walk with folks in uncertain times? No matter what, I guarantee the interim that you’re going into will be a lot more uncertain than you thought it would be.

Jim Latimer: So with that, Henry predicts that your interim work is going to be more unpredictable than you might think. That certainly fits for me. I’m in my fifth interim now, and that certainly fits the bill. Which is also, “Oh rats!” Yet it’s also exciting.

Henry, thank you so much for sharing your guidance and your wisdom and your WHY for this work. I love what you said for those considering this work, to pay attention to your prayer life, that which anchors you in your body and your spirit, so you can accompany people in liminal times. Beautiful, thank you very much.

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