How the Interim Time Created Space for the New Settled Pastor to Lead with Their Own Natural Leadership Style – Transcript
Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministry, best practices and quick help – wisdom from the field. This is our collaborative Wisdom from the Field project featuring short interviews with transitional interim ministers, and others with practical help and wisdom to offer those engaged in transitional ministry. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Wisdom from the Field.
Jim Latimer
Today we have with us not one, but two wise and skilled ministers. Reverend Peter Ilgenfritz is a transitional interim minister, while Reverend Todd Weir is a settled minister. Todd is serving as the settled minister at the church where Peter served as the interim minister for two years immediately prior to Todd. Todd has now served this congregation for about 18 months.
Jim Latimer
We recognize the value of feedback. There’s in-the-moment type of feedback, and there’s feedback that comes further down the road. This later type is really hard for interim ministers to get because we interim ministers do our work, and then we leave. That’s our job. Rarely do interim ministers get detailed, thoughtful feedback about how things have turned out after we left. That is, the fruit of our labors, the rest of the story, if you will. Things like what the settled minister most appreciated about the interim’s work, or things the settled minister would have liked the interim minister to attend to, that for some reason were not. Or things the interim did that the settled minister really appreciates, but didn’t realize the interim did it, and perhaps sweated over it. Things the interim wanted to say to the settled pastor, but didn’t realize it until after the fact – didn’t have the chance, until now.
Jim Latimer
And so, I invited both Peter and Todd into a series of short Wisdom from the Field conversations for just this reason. Episode one here – the theme is generally going to be about how the interim time created space for the new settled minister to lead with their authentic self, their authentic natural leadership style. And so, Todd, I invite you to start, if you will.
Todd Weir
Sure. Thank you, Jim. Good to be on with you and Peter and have this conversation. I was thinking that one of the real challenges of a settled minister is following a long-term pastorate that’s been successful. And the last two congregations I’ve served, one had a 23-year pastorate, and this one had a 16-year pastorate. And both pastors were well loved, active in the community, creative, you know, really following some strong, successful people.
Todd Weir
And walking into an organization that’s had that kind of tremendous continuity and success – on the one hand, it sounds like an ideal situation, right? Things are running really well. But, organizations tend to start to grow around their leaders after a certain amount of time. And things start to become sort of routine – things are in the culture that people aren’t quite aware of. And so, you can come into a new situation and there’s all kinds of expectations that people didn’t realize they were there. Such as what a leader does. When do you take vacation? Where are the boundaries? When do you take phone calls? How “off” is your day off? Who makes what decisions?
Todd Weir
All of those kinds of things. And as a settled pastor, you’re in the process of stepping out of a situation where you’ve been, and there’s been a whole set of assumptions, and stepping into a new one where you don’t know what they are. And one of the things I really appreciated coming into Boothbay Harbor, is the thoughtful time that was taken to really think that through. I think that Peter did a very good job of holding up a mirror to the congregation and saying, Who are you? How do you operate? What was the style of your last pastor? Do you realize that your new pastor may not have that same style? What will you do if that happens?
Todd Weir
It was very helpful because not only is it understanding the style that your last pastor had, but I think too, understanding how the congregation responds to that. So, if your predecessor was pretty hands-on, in all the details, really liked to manage things – often congregations evolved to be pretty happy with that happening. And maybe they don’t realize that maybe the pastor did that, because they didn’t jump in, right?
Todd Weir
I found that the congregation reflected on that, and so I thought, we’ve got to step up! We need to be decision makers. If we have a committee, this is what it’s supposed to do. And I think that just really clears the way so that I could step into the church and negotiate my way forward and navigate it. And that we could co-create what the relationship was going to be, rather than in my last parish, I stepped in and was like, Oh, wow! I don’t even know what I’m stepping on. And it took longer for me to establish who I was as a leader in that church, because there wasn’t as much reflection on who they were and how they operated.
Jim Latimer
Wow, that’s really significant Todd. So, when you stepped into this church at Boothbay Harbor, you were able to step in and lead with your natural, authentic style pretty quickly, it sounds like.
Todd Weir
And also, to co-create it with them. There was the opportunity to do that.
Peter Ilgenfritz
That’s great. Thanks, Jim. And Todd, it’s great to be in this conversation. So, I started at Boothbay Harbor, five weeks before the pandemic hit Maine in mid-March of 2020. And, as Todd mentioned, yes, coming in as an interim, after a very successful church pastorate, and a real thriving time in the life of that church, which I must say, was a real appeal for me to have my first experience as an interim in a place like that. A place where there were a lot of things that were guaranteeing for a real good learning experience for me and the congregation in that time.
Peter Ilgenfritz
And then the pandemic hit. And when that happened, what was made so clear – what was being revealed – in those first five weeks, is that there was a lack of strong lay leadership empowerment. And when the pandemic hit, we had to make decisions about everything, and in all sorts of known and unknown ways that we had to discover together.
Peter Ilgenfritz
So really, the focus of my ministry became around leadership empowerment, when questions came up about what to do, you could have been very, I could be very, I could understand that it could be very easy to replicate the former pastor’s style and make all those decisions. You’re in a crisis mode, feeling like you got to go quickly and just take on a very familiar seat, which I think could have well set up the settled pastor for failure. But fortunately, there are really strong lay leaders in the church. And so, the two key lay leaders and I met every week during my 20 months I was in Boothbay Harbor, to talk through decisions and to check in. It brought the various parts of the church together. And most importantly, it really empowered them around decision making, which in turn really empowered the council to take on their role and responsibility as decision makers, with the hope that the new settled pastor would come in with their own unique style and ways of leading. And a system then, that was set up to really meet them with really strong, empowered, excited, equipped lay leaders to join them in carrying that ministry forward.
Jim Latimer
Wow. So, you worked with two key leaders and you met with them every week, or twice a week…
Peter Ilgenfritz
I met with them every week. At the beginning of the pandemic, we literally checked it every day, as you know, quick decisions. I think the key with all this was instead of our being in situations where I would solve the problem or fix something, I kept giving the work back to them. And in giving the work back to them, I could then come alongside of them, offer opinions and so forth, but really empowering them to make decisions and lead.
Peter Ilgenfritz
And then the second thing I’d say about it, is that framework gave us a regular opportunity to reflect on what happened. Both as the church leaders, church council, we would just pause and say, Well, how did that go? What did we learn in that experience?
Jim Latimer
Nice. So, when things came up and they would naturally turn to you because of the previous culture and the previous pastor’s style where the pastor would solve it, now you would give it back to them – not as You do it!, but rather, Let’s do it together! Let’s solve this together. It’s not mine to solve for you and bring the solution back to you.
Jim Latimer
So, then that’s a key way that you empowered them, right? They weren’t familiar with this new way of problem solving, but you were with them, right? You walked together with them. And then what I heard you say, also, Peter, which is very notable, is you took regular time to specifically reflect and debrief on what just happened. What went well, and why did it go well? If it didn’t go well, why didn’t it go well? And really break that down for them, right? Is that what you did?
Peter Ilgenfritz
Exactly. Building in that regular reflection was a key way to strengthen and equip leadership development. And related to that, was helping the church leaders learn about seeing their congregation from the balcony versus down on the dance floor. And this was a church that was well equipped to being on the dance floor and making decisions about, you know, who brought what for the potluck, and doing things like that. But they were not so skilled at looking at the big picture of the church and the long-term, as the former pastor had really taken on that kind of responsibility.
Peter Ilgenfritz
So, here, it was again, really equipping them to be leaders who could hopefully join the next settled pastor in being able to be equipped to know who they were, vision, look forward – look ahead to the future, as well as do management. So, it’s bringing a lot of the tasks of ministry, both of management and big picture leadership, more in alignment, and strengthening the church leadership to hold all of those responsibilities, and be ready to do it in collaboration with a new settled pastor.
Jim Latimer
Wow! That’s a lot, Peter. That’s a big vision that you had. And one of the things I’m also hearing from that is that because of the collaborative way you led, and the kind of teaching way also that you led them, they got a much better sense of the role of the pastor, and the expectations of the pastor, and the job of the pastor – much bigger than they had before. So, then that gave Todd a lot of room, as they now understood a lot more about what he’s facing and what he’s dealing with as the settled pastor.
Peter Ilgenfritz
Yes. Together we hoped for stronger leadership to join a pastor as our new leadership model in that congregation. The hope was that then a new settled pastor would have a lot of room to decide what to do with that. They’d bring in their own style, their own ways of decision making, collaboration. And what they know is that they’ve got a strong partner here that understands a lot more of what the whole ministry of the church entails, and really knew what were the kind of decisions and responsibilities that the former pastor had held, that now they all held. It was theirs to hold. And they understood that and then could have a conversation with the settled pastor: Yep, we know this is important, and we want you to do this, and we’ll do that, and then we’ll check in this way.
Jim Latimer
Fabulous! So, Todd, as we move into wrap-up here, is there anything you want to highlight from what Peter said?
Todd Weir
Yes. What really struck me while Peter was talking is how an interim time period can be a really important time to make some shifts in the culture of the church. That’s so key, because culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And if you’re not getting into the culture, you’re not really changing anything. And I’ve been in situations where the interim tried to shift the program, or the direction of the church, not the culture. These are examples that I saw coming in, where I said, Oh, there’s been some cultural work done here. One example was at the end of the first council meeting, the council president says, Okay, it’s time for colloquy. Anything that needs to be said, we’re gonna go around, and everybody has a couple of minutes to just reflect on: How was the meeting for you? Was there anything that you wanted to say that you didn’t get to say? And that 10-minute time has sometimes been the most interesting and positive important time where we’re doing something other than making decisions. So, that was a culture change that brought in what Peter was saying in an institutional way.
Todd Weir
And the second example of that was last year we changed over Senior Deacons, which is always a big deal. We’ve had a strong Senior Deacon, and a new person came in who hadn’t done it before. And the new Senior Deacon, we sit down, and she says, Okay, let’s talk about how we work: Here’s my style; here are things I’ve done before; here’s what I like to do; here’s what I’m anxious about. How about you? How often should we talk together? How are we going to set the agendas of the meetings together? And I thought that’s both a great reflection on that person as a leader, but also there’s something cultural in the church that says, This is how you do things as you do leadership transition. I haven’t seen that often, where there’s been that intentionality. And so, when Peter talked about empowering leadership, and so on, those are maybe some concrete things that were clear to me.
Jim Latimer
That’s nice. That idea of the colloquy where everybody speaks. Everybody gets a chance to reflect, and they can hear what each other is saying. It’s so powerful. That’s the debrief thing that I think that Peter had been doing throughout in other instances of his time there.
Jim Latimer
This is really rich. Let’s wrap this segment up here. And then in a minute, we’ll get into a new topic, if that’s okay. Are we good with this? Okay, well, Peter and Todd, thank you so very much for this. I was taking notes myself! Thanks so much for your time and your wisdom.
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