Is it Ever Okay to Terminate a Staff Member During the Interim Time? – Transcript

Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers, best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. My name is Reverend Jim Latimer and I have the pleasure of having with us today Reverend Dr. Jonathan New. The other day when Jonathan I were talking, I wondered, Is it ever okay to fire a staff member as an interim minister? I’ve had interim colleagues say, No way. That’s not your job! And others have said, Well, you better! And so I thought that since Jonathan has a lot of interim experience he have some thoughts that would be helpful for us here. So Jonathan, I’d love to hear your take on some of this.

Jonathan New
Well, the simple answer for me is, yes. Okay, I’ll be really clear about this: I would never take on removal or even encouragement of a staff member to move on without engaging church leaders in consideration of that situation. In other words, I wouldn’t do that unilaterally even if I had the power to do that. And in some contexts the pastor is going to play a different role with respect to staff. So anyway, I would want agreement based on our assessment, and that we agreed that it’s for the best. And always – always – be sure to use a fair, just and legal process for that employee’s removal. And another thing, I’m not talking about changing staff structure here. That is a different thing.

Jim Latimer
That’s a governance question.

Jonathan New
Yes. You really ought to include the church leaders in collaboration with their new pastor. So I would be very reluctant to enter into a staff structure change. But I do think it is important to be willing to engage staff issues specifically, and the possibility of the termination of a staff member’s employment. If it’s going to happen, then the interim time is, frankly, perhaps the best time for removing an employee or encouraging one to move on. That’s my view. There are some exceptions, but most churches really don’t handle staff structure, supervision or management particularly well. We just aren’t well equipped to do that. We tend to feel that we don’t have time or energy for those things. And so many of our churches, in terms of their practices, don’t invest that much of their time and energy on these really important things. We also think of ourselves as spiritual communities and not the small not-for-profit businesses that from at least one point of view, we actually are. And as clergy and as church members, we think of ourselves as loving, compassionate people who, as a result, tend to avoid conflict and confrontation and holding people accountable. So I think most of our churches are not particularly well equipped to handle staff issues generally. There are some terrific exceptions to that, so I don’t want to say that’s always true. But all of these and more are disincentives to addressing staffing issues. The result can be that staff issues can go on for years and years and years, sometimes growing or sometimes really festering. And, you know, ideally, outgoing pastors will take some responsibility for helping the church deal with such issues before their departure. That’s always appreciated. But this might not be possible. And frankly, it doesn’t usually happen in my experience.

Jim Latimer
And I can’t think of an instance of that happening either.

Jonathan New
Yes. So as an interim, I think part of what I can offer to the congregation is the unique position that I occupy, to look at and take up some of these hard issues that haven’t been adequately addressed. Not fix them, but but take them on. And those include issues of staff members that come up. The fact is, encouraging, provoking sometimes or even precipitating staff transitions is going to be a lot easier for me as an interim to do than any settled pastor. The firing of a staff member almost always makes some people in the church mad or angry, or sad. That is normal, and it is natural. And what is also true is that as an interim, I am leaving. So the bad feelings that remain because of the staff dismissal, can continue to be directed at me – the person who is leaving the church system. I can carry that baggage on with me and leave the next settled pastor unencumbered with it as they arrive. So if my role is to help the congregation take its next most faithful steps with new pastoral leadership on its way, then doing what’s in my power to help remove obstacles to their ministry really seems important to me. And the specific step of encouraging a staff member, who really no longer fits the organization or helps it advance its mission in the world effectively, is right, good and proper.

Jim Latimer
And so you’ve got to have a way, before you do something like that, a way to assess that. You want a way that is transparent and that also engages the other core leadership, because I heard you say, Don’t do this by yourself. Don’t do this alone. You’ve got to engage other key lay leaders and with a transparent way of assessing how well this person is fitting in with the ministry goals and things like that. Right?

Jonathan New
Yes. That’s exactly right. So this is not something we just do on our own. It’s not Jonathan’s internal assessment. In the current church where I’m serving, I actually have the power to do that. But I haven’t chosen to exercise power in that way in the system, because I didn’t think it was helpful. I thought that this transition, frankly, needed to be owned by a wider set of church leaders. I thought it was important that at least some set of church leaders understood the background on what happened, because there will come a day when I’m not around and the new settled pastor is there, or some future one, and that history will be important.

Jim Latimer
Yes. That’s good. Thank you very much. I’m a little more clear, a little more calm myself in situations where I’m an interim and there’s a staff person, that from my point of view, is taking more than giving – maybe that’s another way to look at it. And as a church, our job isn’t – of course we love people – but our main job isn’t to supply employment for people.

Jonathan New
And don’t understand me. We’re going to love and be compassionate towards our staff. But there is a moment when the individual staff member’s needs can begin to come first before the needs of the church. And at a certain point, that’s no longer acceptable, if that’s the regular pattern of behavior.

Jim Latimer
That’s a good way to say it: if there’s a regular pattern of the employee’s own needs coming before the needs of the church. If that’s a pattern, a consistent pattern, then that’s a sign that probably something needs to be done. Great. Thank you very much, Jonathan, for helping us think about that. It’s a murky issue, a scary issue, but a really important one, especially if it’s been festering. Thank you very much for that and sharing your wisdom with us.

Jonathan New
You’re welcome, Jim. Thank you.

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