Discerning A Good Fit For Your Next Interim Position – If It Seems Too Good… – Transcript

Jim Latimer: Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers: best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. My name is Reverend Jim Latimer and I have the joy to be with Reverend Dr. Laura Barnes today. Laura has been an interim both in the United Church of Christ, as well as in the Presbyterian Church USA. Laura what best practice would you like to share with our listeners today?

First of all, Jim, thank you for inviting me into these conversations. How to find a good fit is such a personal question. It’s really hard to kind of lift myself up and see how I do this objectively, but I’m going to try. It’s a personal decision on geography. It’s a personal decision on relocation. It’s a personal decision on finances. Is the salary going to be able to support your living in that area? Those are a couple of things we all know to consider. But I highly recommend just trusting your gut. You meet the Committee. You have a conversation. And you get a sense of their eagerness to work with you. You get a sense of their reluctance to go into interim ministry. You get a sense of where they see their church is. And you’ve probably already done your homework and looked at their annual reports, and looked at their profile. You have an idea of what they’re like. And if they sync up, that’s a good sign.

But I did want to share two instances where I actually turned down a Call, and I thought that might be a helpful way of approaching this question. The first one was a congregation that was very excited about Calling an intentional interim, and they had carved out a space of 18 months, and they really wanted to do the work, and they had had a long-term pastor. I think it was 30 years. And so they knew that they had some letting go, some grieving, some venting that they needed to do. I found that very exciting. But after our second conversation, we got down to numbers. They had a fair salary. They actually were trying to Call me three quarter time, which to me means a full-time minister on a on a 75% salary. But they had no consideration for healthcare, or annuity. They had met with the conference, and the conference had given them very specific guidelines which I guess, they just looked at and put aside. So I had a conversation with the chair of the committee. I didn’t want to do in front of the entire committee, because I don’t want to shame people, or embarrass them. And I said, healthcare in California costs, 12 to $15,000 a year, and the annuity is 14%, so where are you in your consideration for that? They had not thought about it. So they went back to the Council, they went back to their committee, and they came back with an offer that wasn’t even close to covering those costs. And so, while I appreciated their eagerness to do the interim work, I did not feel that they were committed to supporting that person. They wanted to pull ideas and expertise and use the interim well, but they didn’t want to pay for that, and so it was a, “thanks, but no thanks” kind of a thing.

It’s always a surprise, I think, to committees, when you tell them, “no.” Because by the time you get to the table, they think you’re just trying to convince them to hire you, but it’s “both/and.” They also need to sell their area, to convince you that their church is ready to do the work, and offer you a salary that will support you when when you move to that area. So that was a financial “no.”

The second one was a little more complex and more difficult for me in a heart way. I loved the Church. It was healthy. It was booming. It was in a what I thought was a progressive area. And they were ready to really hit the ground running with the transition. We had several great interviews that were very upbeat. They had a wonderful music ministry. Everything just felt really good, and a very strong financial package, which, of course, by this time I’m asking for in advance. I did a lot of research, and I looked all over their website, but I could not find their Open and Affirming statement anywhere. And so the second conversation that I had with the committee, I said, I can’t find your Open and Affirming statement. Can you send me a copy of it? And they all every single one of them hemmed and hawed, and explained what a welcoming place it was, and they just didn’t think they needed to have a statement, and anybody was welcome. And I explained to them, the importance of an ONA statement, and I asked them this question, I said, “Part of the interim work, in my mind, would be revisiting this question. Can we sit down as a congregation with my leadership and conference support, and see where you are now with this question?” And the committee was resolute that it was too divisive, and they would not even consider allowing that question to come up, which is not only a red flag around ONA, but other issues too. So if you have already made up your mind who you are, do you really want to do the work?

The other red flag I got after that second conversation, is they had their senior pastor search committee already formed and running, so they really just needed me to come and hold the space. And that’s just not how I see this work at all. I see this work as a deep dive into looking at all the nooks and crannies, and helping a church really see herself for who she is and move her forward toward her future and into her vision. So that “no” was more difficult. I had a long conversation with that conference, minister, who is very supportive, but as an ally, I just cannot go to a place that won’t even have a conversation around becoming Open and Affirming. So those were two of the “noes” that I’ve had. The rest of the “yeses” have worked out well. I mean it’s challenging work. There are always bumps along the road, but I just wanted to offer those two kinds of case studies to see if that would be helpful.

Jim Latimer: Laura, those are powerful. I’m reminded of several things as I listened to you. The first is that, as an interim, when we are negotiating, in contracting stage, we have to look out for ourselves. We have to know what we need, and ask for it, and get it on the table. Don’t assume that they’re going to supply it, whether it’s health insurance or the pension. Don’t assume anything. Ask and get it on the table. As one person said around contracting, “Ask for a form with all those things listed, and if they don’t have one, be ready to offer one, so you can make sure you cover the key areas.”

And your two “no” stories were instructive. The financial one was a little more obvious perhaps to our listeners than the heart one. And what I heard from you in the heart one is a lot of self awareness of what your gifts are for interim ministry, and so it’s important to you that, because God gave you these gifts, you want to use them. And so assessing and discerning, “Is this a place where I can really use my gifts or not?” and that’s not an obvious question at first, especially with congregations trying to sell themselves to you, and your needing to sell yourself, for financial or for whatever reason, you may need a job. But that dance of going in with your eyes open so that you know as much as you can before you start about why they want me, and these are the skills that I will be able to use, or perhaps not at this time, and that’s values question too.

Thank you so much for this rich wisdom.

Laura Barnes (She/Her): Thank you, Dr. Latimer.

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