A Vision-Is It the Congregation’s or the Pastor’s? (and Why It Matters) – Transcript
Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministry, best practices and quick help – wisdom from the field. I am your host Reverend Jim Latimer. Today Reverend Liz Miller is joining us. Liz is a millennial United Church of Christ minister with depth experience as a settled pastor, and now serving in a transitional role as a Designated Term pastor at a church in Connecticut. Liz is one of the most innovative, fun and creative pastors I know. We met a bunch of years ago at clergy camp. This is something that she had created and facilitated for several years. It was life-giving for me as I always came away with an extra bit of her playful energy and creative spirit and wise ideas. And when I read her recent book titled, “Only Work Sundays: A Laidback Guide to Doing Less while Helping Your Church Thrive,” I knew she was on to something. I wanted to learn more, and to share her wisdom on this podcast platform.
Jim Latimer
So, Liz, in preparation for this, we talked a lot about vision, yours as a pastor, as a Transitional Minister having a vision, and also the congregation having a vision. So, if the congregation has a vision, how do you know if it’s actually your vision that they’ve kind of adopted somehow, or it’s really their vision? How can you know?
Liz Miller
It’s a question I wrestle with all the time, Jim. You want to be careful, and you want to be aware. And I feel like I’m constantly testing, Are they saying that because I’m in the room? Are they saying that because they know that I’m excited about that? So, in my style of leadership, I try to do a lot of listening and I pay attention to, particularly when two unrelated people or three unrelated people will come to me with a similar need or a similar idea or a similar reflection, You know, we didn’t really like this or, I’m concerned about this. So, for me, the congregation’s vision – is it appearing in multiple places? Is it something that across different segments of the congregation people are articulating it in similar ways?
Liz Miller
So, then my role is to connect those threads together, weave them together, put them in the same space, help them to dig deeper, or to bring those individual pieces to a larger body, like your leadership group, to help them be aware of it. And then take those next steps together, if there are next steps to be taken. I am also listening for the language. Are there themes coming up? Are people able to articulate through worship, through meetings, through different committees and commitments in the church, are they really finding their way to the same focus? When they think about the future of the church, are they using similar language? Are they clear about what their goals are as a congregation and in various spaces?
Liz Miller
Again, that multiplicity is in a concert coming up in various spaces? Is someone who really only participates on Sunday mornings, they come to worship, they go to coffee hour, do they know what the goals of the church are? When you talk to them, What excites you about the future of the church? When you ask them, what do they say? And does that share any of the same language or beliefs as the Council or the governing board does? And if not, then what work is there to do for the congregation to get on the same page and to bring each other to develop together that shared vision? For me, I really know it’s a congregation’s vision when I am not actually that excited about it in terms of myself. If there are parts of it that do not reflect who I am, or what my passions are, I’m like, Oh, we’re on this right page here!
Jim Latimer
There’s not too much of me in here in this.
Liz Miller
If it’s something that I feel that I could do this myself. Or like, Oh, this is perfect! As soon as I start to hit those, like, perfection, that I get a little wary, Oh, gotta be careful with that! Because if I feel like it’s perfect, then it’s probably a reflection of my beliefs and my hopes, rather than these people who are totally different than me, or have their own hopes and their own beliefs. So, there’s that self-awareness piece too, in addition to listening outward, listening inward, to make sure that I’m not placing myself in it too much.
Jim Latimer
Wow. That’s good! I appreciate much of what you said: their words and language, and people that are experiencing the congregation differently, from just the occasional Sunday person, or maybe a little coffee hour, that person, whom you might have to draw out from them. And so, there’s that. And then there’s the council folks or other leaders that are in it all the time. And looking for gaps, looking for similarities. That’s very helpful. That’s a challenge that every thoughtful pastor faces. And so, let me just ask you, because we got the nub of this one, but I want to ask you one other thing, if I could. What do you do when you find out? Because you had said, Oh, that’s a good vision. I feel like I could do that myself. Right? Or, probably I did do it myself. Probably it is a reflection of me! When you find that you’ve got too much of yourself in something that the congregation is moving ahead with, and you say, Oh, man, there’s too much of me in this! What do you do?
Liz Miller
Oh, gosh, that’s a big question. I start to think about the supports that need to go in place to move me out of the way. So, if you think of a Jenga tower, those woodblock towers, if you’re moving a piece out, but you want to keep it stable, what needs to go in its place? What do you need to make sure is there? Because sometimes if that happens, and I move out of the way and the tower falls down, you have your answer, right? Rather than just leaving a gap, what are we going to fill that with? As I sort of back out or move sideways, are there people who are going to step in? If they’re not, then we’ve got our gap problem. Are there people that we can equip? Are there ways that we can shift? Or are there opportunities, either from the pulpit if it’s a really blatant thing, or in a leadership meeting to say, I think I’m in this too much. Or, I think that I’ve been driving this bus and I need some help for us to go in a direction that’s more authentic to the congregation. Or else I’m concerned that if I’m not here in a year or two, that this is going to collapse. I think that being really honest is important.
Liz Miller
We had a situation in our congregation that was a really small thing around particular language of a prayer in worship. And I’d heard from a few different people, Why do we have to say it this way? Or, it seems old fashioned. But I’d been worried. I didn’t want to make that the big issue. Or, we’re pretty spread apart in our beliefs. And I said, Oh, just keep waiting, just keep waiting. And I kept hearing from people. But my agenda was to not make waves, and to not make that the center. But the congregation was telling me again, and again, We’re ready to make this change. And so, I admitted in a sermon, I said, It turns out, I’m the most traditional conservative person in this room in this moment, because you all have been telling me after worship and with emails, and my agenda was to keep things the same. And your agenda was to grow and shift and try that on together. And I didn’t listen to that. So just that admitting it was, I think, in that moment, opened up the change in a way that really shifted it to this is about the congregation and I’m listening to you all, and you all have the opportunity to listen to each other. But it was it was a humbling experience for me.
Jim Latimer
I bet! What a great example. What I heard you say was, There’s too much of me by there not being enough of me in here. Release it. That’s real ego strength, a real faith is strength there to do that. And you modeled it. That’s a lesson that leaders need to hear to grow in their leadership capacity. And that’s a lesson that can rarely be grasped by someone telling you. You’ve got to see it.
Liz Miller
Yeah, yeah.
Jim Latimer
I bet when you did that, some people probably gasped a little bit, because, wow being vulnerable and appropriately so. We don’t often get a pastor saying that or revealing that. That can be really powerful.
Liz Miller
I feel like one of my gifts is being disconnected enough from the outcome that I can take that risk. I try to step back enough from being the center of things or having control over it, so that when I do realize I’ve fallen into that pattern in any sort of situation, I have a place to go back to. It’s a practice. It’s not about getting it perfect every time. But you practice. You notice, Oh, I slipped up there! Here’s what I need to do to get back to that place that really works for the congregation and for myself.
Jim Latimer
That’s a perfect place to end, Liz. I appreciate so much how you’re speaking as a first-time transitional Minister, and what it’s like for you with a vision. When there’s a vision, how do you know if it’s yours or theirs? That’s a tricky one. But there is a way forward in this. It’s a step by step thing. Thank you so much for your honesty and your sharing. Many will benefit from this, Liz. Thank you.
Liz Miller
Thank you. I’ve enjoyed talking with you.