Church Bullies: Taking the Person more seriously than the behavior – Transcript
Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers, best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. I’m your host Reverend Jim Latimer. Today we have with us Reverend Pegi Ridout. Pegi is a long-experienced transitional specialist, which is like the “interim’s interim.” She’s really been around the block a number of times. I particularly admire and have learned a lot from her wisdom around conflict and how conflict, if handled well, can be a gift. And within that, is the idea of bullies, and she’s thought a lot about church bullies. And so, I invited her to speak about that. And also, Pegi is from the United Church of Canada, and lives in Ontario. It’s a joy to have her with us today. So, Pegi, we’d love to hear what you have to say, and to help us to think about bullying behavior in a constructive, helpful way.
Pegi Ridout
Thanks, Jim. My observation, and I don’t know if this is true or not, but my observation is that bullying is going up in faith communities. And I think part of the reason for that is our fear of conflict. And so, what happens is that kind of behavior is permitted instead of being curtailed, and then it works its way into the system in a way that makes it even more difficult to manage it.
So, I want to talk today a little bit about how we manage that kind of behavior. And to do that, I’m going to say that there are three categories of bullies, or so-called bullies, which I think require different kinds of handling. And of course, there’s some discernment involved in determining which kind of bullying one is dealing with. And I would urge folks not to jump to conclusions, but to really take the time to figure that out.
So, the first group of people who are seen as bullies are the people I’m going to call the Canaries in the coal mine. Those are the ones who genuinely love the congregation. And they see something that’s wrong, that either no one else sees yet, or no one else is willing to name aloud. And so, they will often start very gently with describing what they’re seeing as problematic. But because the system is afraid, those folks get ignored. And so, their voices get louder and louder. And eventually they get belligerent because their message is urgent, And nobody’s listening! And it matters! And so, of course, they’ve taken to shouting.
The second category are the people I’m going to call the Porcupines. Those are the ones who are the walking wounded. They also love the congregation. However, themselves? Maybe not so much. They usually have low self-esteem. They’ve often – in a community have faith – taken on really hard responsibilities that they manage very diligently and work very hard at. But eventually, that becomes a lot to bear. And they begin to feel resentful, and burdened, and then that spills out and over into bad behavior. So those are the Porcupines.
And then the third group are the ones I’m going to call the Skunks. And these are the ones that I would actually label as bullies. Usually, there are psychological issues at play here. And the behavior that they engage in is harassment, and abuse.
So, each of these three categories, the Canaries, the Porcupines and the Skunks are ones that we might label as bullies. And as I said, they need to be treated differently. And we need to take time to discern which one we’re dealing with and not jump to conclusions, not automatically label people who are Porcupines or Canaries as Skunks, and I think we’re inclined to do that.
So, how do we manage these different behaviors? The Canary. The Canaries are the ones who actually have an important message that needs to be heard. And the job of the Interim is to prepare a way like John the Baptist – to prepare a way for the system to listen. So, one of the things I do is to interrupt the mislabeling of those folks as bullies or problematic with a mantra. And my mantra is this: Right idea, wrong strategy. Right idea, wrong strategy. And I say it over and over: Right idea, wrong strategy. Because what I want is for the other leaders to listen to the wisdom and insight that’s underneath the bluster and misfires and frustration. The system needs what these people have to say. And those folks are so committed to what they know that they’re willing to risk the system ostracizing them. They’re willing to risk their own belonging for the sake of getting that prophetic message across. The Canaries are the ones that I’m most anxious for us not to dismiss, because they have wisdom. And the congregation needs to listen.
The second group are the Porcupines the ones that are the walking wounded. I tend to readily love these folks. Because they work so hard, and they do the hard work. They do the heavy lifting – the jobs that no one else wants they will take on. So, I show them that I trust them and that I value them. And I position myself to earn their trust in return. I give them my time and attention. I listen. I commend them for their work. And then having earned their trust and respect, I am in a place to invite a conversation about the impact of their behavior on others, and of their workload on themselves. When they turn all of that external effort and work they’ve been doing into themselves – to doing the internal work – they are open to coaching or therapy or spiritual direction. And I’ve seen those folks become good, strong, faithful leaders, from Porcupines to ones who are invaluable to the system, because they still have that energy and willingness to do the hard work.
Jim Latimer
That’s beautiful, Pegi. What I heard you say just there, was that for them to be able to be constructive in their engagement with the system, it’s around learning to love themselves. And you model that by first saying basically, I love you. And you communicate that to them in every way that you possibly can: I love you, Porcupine!
Pegi Ridout
And you are lovable!
Jim Latimer
Thank you. You are lovable! Yes. And for a Porcupine, that might be an unbelievable message that couldn’t possibly be true.
Pegi Ridout
Yes. So, you have to keep saying it, and reminding them, and then giving them the tools to discover their self-love. So yeah, so we’ve got the prophetic voice of the Canaries. And we’ve got the hard-working energy of the Porcupines. And I don’t know whether actual porcupines are hard workers like that or not, but it’s a good image.
And then the third group are the Skunks. And those are the ones that I would actually – although reluctantly – label as bullies. They’re aggressive. They’re sometimes abusive, and their behavior is harassment. They need to be told that there are boundaries. They need to be told clearly what those boundaries are. And they need to be told in no uncertain terms what the consequences are if and when they breach those boundaries. And then most importantly – and this is the place where communities of faith often are hesitant – the consequences that they’ve been told will be implemented, need to actually be implemented. Unless those folks are stood up, to they will infect and disempower the whole congregation.
So, as ones on the edge of the system, the Interim is well positioned to do the standing up, or to coach the standing up to happen. My first choice is always to work with leaders within the system to help them know how to stand up to the bullies. Because it helps leaders in the system to learn those skills. And it keeps the authority for constraining the bully within the system. If that doesn’t work, then it falls to me, because the bullies do have to be stopped. But then it’s harder for the congregation to retain their resolve to keep the bully in check when I leave, because they have not learned – have not practiced for themselves – that skill.
So, I want to say that not all so-called bullies are created equal. And you need to figure out which kind you’re dealing with. Are you dealing with a curmudgeonly Canary, in which case you need to teach the system to listen? Are you dealing with a prickly Porcupine, in which case you need to help them love themselves? Or are you dealing with a stinky Skunk, in which case you need to coach the leaders to build a reinforced fence around them? When we help congregations manage bullying behavior, congregations become healthier, stronger and more energized. It’s vital work.
Jim Latimer
Gosh, Pegi, this was a tour de force. And I so much appreciate the summary that you gave at the end. I couldn’t possibly improve on that. And your economy of words and clarity of thought is a huge gift – which I have just received and others will receive afterwards. So, Pegi, thank you so much for your time, and your wisdom, and your spirit, your sense of humor and your leadership for the sake of the mission of the Body of Christ in our world. It’s a good thing. Thank you.
Pegi Ridout
You’re welcome, Jim. Thank you.
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