walking with a congregation through the decision to sell their building (and join the community) – Transcript
Jim Latimer
Welcome to Coaching for Interims. We are about empowerment for interim ministers, best practices and quick help from interims for interims – wisdom from the field. I’m your host, Reverend Jim Latimer. We have the pleasure of having with us today, Reverend Dr. Todd Yonkman. Todd is a savvy and long-experienced pastor, both as a settled minister and as a transitional minister, on many aspects of the church lifecycle, from founding a church to the other end – a hospice situation with a church. And I also know that he has had the experience of walking with a congregation through the decision to sell their building. He offered to speak to us a bit about the story – what it was like, and what he learned in walking with that church as they make that decision, and then whatever came after that.
Todd Yonkman
Sure. Thanks, Jim. Glad to have this opportunity to share and to connect. First off, I’d like to point people to Donna Schaper, recently retired from Judson Memorial Church in Manhattan. I don’t know if it’s come out as a book, but she wrote a piece called, “Bricks and Mortals.” I think she may have written it for the Christian Century. She’s a great person to look to. And one of the things that she wrote that stuck with me, she said, When it comes to buildings, don’t sell too soon, and don’t sell too late. That really resonates with my experience with First Congregational Church of Stamford, CT.
Todd Yonkman
I was called there in 2016. They had too much building for the congregation at that point in 2016. They already had a vote, and were in the process of putting a deal together with a commercial real estate developer. So that’s one thing when talking about buildings – just to point out what may seem obvious, but I’ll point it out anyway: it’s highly contextual. So, this church, First Congregational Church of Stamford, CT, happened to have the good fortune of being located on probably the most valuable piece of property in the city, in one of the hottest, fastest growing cities in the state at the time. So, it really was in a position to benefit financially from a building sale. That’s probably the exception rather than the rule, unless you’re in an urban area. Certainly, that is a real trend in the tri-state area in New York City, in Washington, DC. In some of these high real estate areas, commercial developers know, and are actually looking for church property – vulnerable church properties that they might buy.
Todd Yonkman
Anyway, if you’re not in that situation, there are churches that have come up with tons of creative options. Often, it’s selling to another congregation. Sometimes, there’s a partnership with the town. Sometimes it becomes a private living space, or an art space or public space of some kind. So, there are a ton of options, but don’t sell too soon. Don’t sell too late. And like I said, in Stamford, they had already began talking about selling the building. The idea was that they would sell part of the property to the developer, keep the main worship space, and then use the proceeds off of the part of the property that they sold, which is basically like the education wing and such, to remodel the worship space and just have a smaller footprint.
Todd Yonkman
As they went through the process, and it was a couple years in the making, what we came to discover was that no one was happy with the deal. And here’s another thing about selling buildings, especially if you’re thinking about renovating a space or whatever: it always costs more than you think. And so, the plan turned out not to be working for anyone. The commercial real estate developer really just wanted the whole property, because they could do a much bigger, more profitable development if they had the whole piece. And the church, for the amount of money that they were getting for just selling a parcel, it turned out that once we got the architects, and the contractors, and all the bids in – went through that whole process – it wasn’t even going to come close to covering the cost to renovate the remaining piece to make it up to code so that it could be used. And the thought was, Well, we’re going to get so much money off this that we’re going to be able to create an endowment that will fund the building. Well, maybe in Manhattan that works, but Stamford, nice as it is, is not Manhattan.
Todd Yonkman
And so, we ended up calling off the deal. All along, there was one person on the trustees, who was kind of the lone voice, who would say, Why don’t we just get rid of the whole thing and just start over as a new church! And when I first arrived, everyone was like, Oh, ha, ha, right! But he kept saying it. And long story short, that is what ended up happening. And so, what was originally conceived of as a downsizing, actually turned into a restart. And the process and the people who went through this process really demonstrated for me a level of faithfulness to the Christian gospel that is very inspiring.
Todd Yonkman
One particular parishioner I remember talking with had given $20,000 to repair and renovate the stained-glass windows in the sanctuary space in honor of her sister’s memory, who had an untimely death. And I remember sitting with her in the finance office in the church, and just weeping. Being with her in this process of letting go of this memorial that she created. And at the time that she created it, she assumed it would outlast her, and then having to come to this place of, Well, what is it that will outlast me? And coming to this realization that, What outlasts me is the mission. That is what outlasts us. That is what continues.
Todd Yonkman
Congregations come and go. Buildings come and go. This church was already on its sixth building. So that was one of the things that helped them come to this place of being able to let the building go. They’re like, We’ve done this five times already! This is what we do! We let go of the building and start again! It’s an over 400-year-old church, and is still going now as a new church start, worshiping in the high school, taking this big chunk of money that they got.
Todd Yonkman
One of the things we discovered in our work in connecting with the community was that it was not just about fixing up the building. One of the things that I had to tell them when they were back on this idea of just selling a piece of the property, was that unless you are reaching the community and connecting with new people, and building vitality and the church, what you’ll end up with is a nice renovated worship space to sell to another church! We all had to come to terms in a very concrete way with the idea that – not just lip service – that the church is the people. What continues on is the mission! Despite all of the doom and gloom that we can sometimes hear about regarding the state of churches in America and in our communities, there’s nothing wrong with the gospel. The gospel will go on! The question is whether or not we are being called to be around to be a part of it. There’s nothing wrong with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is going to continue.
Todd Yonkman
So, for this church, part of selling the building meant that they were saying, Yes, we are going to be a part of this ongoing mission, and that is our future! That is what I found so inspiring. And one of the shifts that occurred was that we went from this place of, The church is falling apart, to, The church is falling open. They have really embraced this idea that we are a church without walls. We are a church, in the community and for the community. And so, I’m very excited and very hopeful for their future.
Todd Yonkman
And it was confusing for people, even for some of my colleagues. One person I remember after I had moved on from that call, said to me, Oh, you’re the guy that closed that church in Stamford. Arrrggh! I wanted say, No! The building is being developed for condos. The church is alive! It’s more open than it has ever been! It’s the opposite of closed. Anyway, it was a difficult process, but a spirit-led process, and a transformational process for that particular congregation.
Jim Latimer
Wow! When I heard that you really were able to hold that space in a non-anxious way I was amazed. Because as you told me earlier, one of your mantras that you learned from this is to hold that space non-anxiously, which means don’t try to rescue. And to be – and these are your words – Be willing, as a pastor to sit with their tears, which you did with this woman with the stained-glass windows. It was obvious to me from hearing you talk, that you were able to mediate a holy presence that enabled her to make the shift from, What will last and live on after me isn’t the stained glass. It’s not about the stained glass. It’s about the mission of the church and the mission of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is really what was driving my desire to have the thing in the first place. I just hadn’t articulated it in that way. But your presence enabled her to make that shift – big shift! And this shift from falling apart to falling open. Wow. Todd, that is really hopeful! You’ve given listeners hope to hang in there. It can work. But you’ve got to be willing to be changed too. You’ve got to be in it. You can’t be separate from the congregation when they’re walking through this. You’ve got to be in it with them.
Todd Yonkman
We do serve a God of miracles. And I say that because I’ve witnessed them. This is a difficult time for many congregations. But it is also an incredible time, because we are being called on to really walk the walk, and to really learn anew what it means to follow Jesus and to have faith in this God who continues to show up in amazing and unexpected ways, if we can just let go enough to make that space where that miracle can happen for us.
Jim Latimer
Allow space for that miracle to happen. Beautiful. Perfect place to end. Todd, thank you so much for another really rich bit of wisdom here. Wow, it was a treat to be part of this with you. Thank you.
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